A lot of times, mono critics are told we should just “shut up”. Everything that needs to be said has been said, no one is going to change their mind, and there is no point in going on about things.
Let me tell you why I reject that.
The start
Take for example, this blog entry from Shane Fagan, “YAMP – Please end the debate” In it, Mr. Fagan expresses his opinion on the Mono controversy and summarizes with :
So its controversial but we have to accept it end the debate and if you have a problem make a better program to replace the Mono ones and ask for it to be included instead if you want.
Read through the comments if you like. I think it is fair to say Mr. Fagan is not really pro- or anti-mono. I think he is more where most people involved in the community are: somewhat informed on the matter and very tired of hearing about it. I hope he forgives me for using him as an example for a wider base of people.
He wants the debate to end. He’s tired of it. I sympathize. Hell, I am tired of it. But there are some very good reasons why I think ending the debate is not an acceptable solution.
Reason one: Everyone doesn’t have the facts
Mr. Fagan feels he is well informed on the debate, but if you read the post and the comments it is clear he does not understand some of the important points. At the time of the orginal posting:
- He said the Community Promise means you “can do whatever the hell you like with anything under it” Except there are some clear (and unclear) limits on exactly what the CP covers.
- He thought “adding moonlight functionality is similar to supporting MP3s and WMA media formats in my opinion but we can enable it by default if we wish”. Except Ubuntu keeps that stuff in restricted-extras, and no one is talking about sticking MP3 support in the GNOME panel.
- He thought “Moonlight is the mono implementation of silverlight and is under the same agreement as mono.” Except of course there is no similar standard or agreement for Silverlight/Moonlight.
Again, not trying to beat the man up, just using this post as an example. There’s nothing wrong with not being completely informed on this issue: it’s a confusing and complex problem, there a lot of poor quality information being put out on both sides, and who has time to wade through all that mess, right?
But I think this perfectly illustrates one reason why it is not yet time to stop the debate. A lot of people do not understand the issues. For whatever reason, there is still a lot of misunderstanding about factual matters like the difference between ECMA / not-ECMA parts of mono, and the difference between Mono / Moonlight.
You can’t stop a debate when even the factual matters are not understood by people. It’s very hard for honest debate to even take place if the facts are in question!
Reason two: Stopping is conceding
Another reason why it is not time to stop the debate is that “stopping the debate” means Team Mono “wins”. By my lights, Team Mono is the aggressive entity – vigorously promoting Mono / Moonlight onto other distributions. If we “stop the debate”, then the outcome is the same as if Team Mono had “won” the debate.
Consider this: I would not nearly be so fired up about speaking up against mono if Team Mono were focused on creating a new distribution or desktop environment that featured Mono. Or, say, if they were focused on getting Mono all up in OpenSUSE - who would care then?
Reason three: Opt-out is not acceptable
“Opt-out” is not the equal opposite of “opt-in”. Anyone who suggests that is trying to sell you something. “Just opt-out if you don’t like it” is the argument of telemarketers and spammers the world over. Team Mono is trying to put users of other distributions in the “opt-out” position, and that is not right.
Those same people who would figuratively spit on a spammer for using the “opt-out” argument will gladly turn around and tell you “It’s easy to remove mono if you don’t like it, so just shut up”, and never see the contradiction.
Consider this: I am not opposed to the very idea of inclusion of mono and mono apps in the repositories.
Reason four: It is too important
We aren’t talking about arguing over the One True Brace Style here. Team Mono wants to be on your desktop. They want more Mono and even Moonlight up in GNOME. If they get GNOME based on .NET, then you can bet your sweet object code they are coming for KDE.
Reason five: It sets a bad precedent
First was C#/CLI, then .NET, then Moonlight. Each iteration has been less Free and more risky to build on. Each one is ever closer to some exclusive Novell-Microsoft arrangement.
What of the next Microsoft technology that Team Mono decides needs to be cloned? Microsoft can afford to have every component integrate tightly – in fact, it is to thier advantage to do so. But we who rely on standards and promises to protect us can not be so cavalier.
Reason six: That’s what Novell wants
Listen, Novell management is not a bunch of idiots. There can be no question that they knew entering into a relationship with Microsoft would be taken as a betrayal of the community. There is no doubt in my military mind they sat down and tried to judge the cost as best they could, and you know what they came up with:
“Ah, go ahead and do it. People will get over it eventually.”
Here’s the thing about that – they are probably right. Companies rely on short attention spans and people moving on. But Novell’s deal is just as offensive and anti-community in 2009 as it was in 2006. On the day it ends - if it ever ends - it will end as ignominious as it started.
But it is hard and tiring to oppose something, especially when there is no money in it and the other side has infinitely more. You have to be passionate to do that, right? And passion is easily miscontrued as blind zealotry. And everyone know us anti-mono kooks are hateful zealots “obsessed” with Microsoft right?
Consider this: I’m not opposed to SomeRandomWindowsCompany.com dealing with Microsoft. Why? Because I don’t care about SRWC.com’s products.
Consider this: I’m not opposed to Red Hat’s virtualization agreement with Microsoft. Why? Because it does not include patent agreements, money changing hands, or all that “peace of mind”, “respecting intellectual property” talk that surrounds the Novel/Microsoft deal.
Red Hat stood up for Linux, and Microsoft came to them. Novell sold out Linux, and went crawling to Microsoft.
Those are two very different messages, and it shows the difference between passion and zealotry. FLOSS can deal with Microsoft – on our terms.
Summary
So, there you have it. That’s why I’m not ready to “just shut up” about something I care about. I am talking about conversation and debate; I am willing to listen and try to engage in dialogue. I think if you read through my blog you’ll see I at least attempt to give a fair listen to what the other side has to say.
Is it hateful of me to ask for the same in return? Is it crazy of me to voice my concerns?

#1 by vexorian on July 18th, 2009
Just wanted to thank you Jason. The anti-mono crew really needed a place with concise arguments.
#2 by Jason on July 18th, 2009
@vexorian,
Thank you!
#3 by theodor on July 18th, 2009
Been following this for quite a while… thanks for the useful work and keep going!
#4 by Shane Fagan on July 18th, 2009
To be honest I think you understood that I am a neutral in this argument which is good. I admit I did have a few wrong ideas particularly concerning moonlight and after reading the page about it I realise that it is fairly restrictive about usage of the technology. I still have to say the CP wording is a lot similar to the wording of the licence that google wave will be under. It is a patented technology and although under US patent law in particular they can sue people for using or making their own implementations of the technology but they reserve the right to take away that right if someone sues them and that is quite clear in the CP and is very common for companies to reserve that right. Personally I dont agree with software patents but companies like Microsoft (Profit driven companies) like to cover their own ass.
#5 by Jason on July 18th, 2009
@Shane
Yes, I did and I really hope this did not come off as an attack on you or poking fun.
I honestly think your posting represented how a lot of people think about the situation and would make a good example.
Also I was impressed that you at least listened to my input – even though I know you still don’t agree with me! – so I felt “safe” talking about your post, rather than some other person who might get all upset and take things the wrong way!
Keep on blogging!
@theodor
Thank you!
#6 by Shane Fagan on July 18th, 2009
Ah I didnt take offence its ok
#7 by Dan Serban on July 19th, 2009
I recommend listening to this podcast:
“Open Tech Exchange Episode 1 – Mono, Java and Foss in Education”
http://mxc.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=504744
#8 by Hrvat on July 19th, 2009
Jason, thanks for being a pro “evangelist”. It’s just what community needs now, considering how much of them Microsoft hired recently.
#9 by Ed Landaveri on July 19th, 2009
Mono && Moonlight favors Microsoft. That’s the only fact and to be against them is NOT to be on a “hate buble” as de Icaza points it out but to stand up for freedom.
It’s Novell and de Icaza promoting these technologies with the paid help of MS trolls everywhere on the web. “Lie, lie, && lie…something will remail” – Himmler
The goal: “let us corrupt every distribution with mono and when it becomes too hard to extricate from it. Bang! we’ll sue every distribution using it, Except Judas Novell. The only ’safe’ distribution. That’s why we (Judass Novell) offer you “peace of mind”. Once we get every distribution out of business, since Microsoft can NOT produce anything superior to GNU/Linux, they’ll buy Judas Novell && start selling “Microsoft Linux”
Thanks Miguel! We’ll be able to send your check directly from Redmond rather than passing it through Provo.
To close our eyes to the convicted monopolist’ history it’s suicidal. Thanks for not shutting up! It takes courage and conviction, not zealotry as they want to paint it. Well paid troll can NOT silence the truth! It’s time to turn the wheel to the defamatory tactics promoted by this corrupt monopoly that won’t stop to anything to achieve their goals!
My respects && hats off to you and everyone who stands for the truth: “Red Hat stood up for Linux, and Microsoft came to them. Judas Novell sold out Linux, and went crawling to Microsoft”, and for protecting freedom && the users!
#10 by Kurva Ujkitza on July 19th, 2009
I stop by BN when I have the chance (the BEST Linux/FLOSS links on the net) to keep up to date and discovered this site.
I like what Ive read so far, remiinds me of ushimitsudoku (sp) a bit.
Well written articles and an exemplary behaviour from what Ive read. Makes me want to come back again.
Great, as if I need another site to visit regularly
yeah, Ive had enough of this topic like most people.
But that doesnt mean people should give up because its ‘uncomfortable’.
Closing our eyes and ears and going “lalalalalala, i cant hear you.” isnt the solution.
Keep it up.
#11 by Jason on July 19th, 2009
@Kurva,
Thank you!
#12 by ricardo nunes on July 19th, 2009
i thank you jason for this great site, it’s good to know we have a place where we can point to the ms-novell-trolls when they come with the same old talk.
i just read the very sad position of canonical/ubuntu in all this, they are already censuring users that do not like ms-novell-mono, and probably will be more and more in bed with the trojan horse ms-novell-mono.
what should a kubuntu user do?
i am really serious about leaving this distro, but then what is the position of FSF supported distro gnewsense about all this?
shouldn’t gnewsense be based entirely in debian?
i really don’t know what to do.
i probably will use debian testing/sid roll distro with kde/openbox/xfce/E17 or lxde.
there’s another possibility use #crunchbang or gnewsense without any trace of ms-novell-mono.
i’m a huge fan of debian so in spite of the great position of fedora/RH on this issue i’m not going to rpm based distro.
what you guys think?
thanks
#13 by ricardo nunes on July 20th, 2009
by the way, does anybody know what are the positions of the BSD folks on all this issues?
#14 by Jo Shields on July 20th, 2009
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/lang/mono/
#15 by ricardo nunes on July 20th, 2009
well, although the FreeBSD folks have that, that doesn’t mean they develop anything on that platform, like RMS explains,
” This is not to say that implementing C# is a bad thing. Free C# implementations permit users to run their C# programs on free platforms, which is good. (The GNU Project has an implementation of C# also, called Portable.NET.) Ideally we want to provide free implementations for all languages that programmers have used.”
since i don’t have more info on BSD and ms-novell-mono i believe they’re doing something on the lines of what RMS defend.
#16 by Jo Shields on July 20th, 2009
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/audio/cowbell/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/audio/muine/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/deskutils/mcatalog/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/deskutils/tomboy/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/editors/bless/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/ftp/bareftp/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/graphics/autopano-sift/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/graphics/f-spot/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/graphics/hugin/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/lang/fsharp/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/lang/ironpython/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/lang/mono-basic/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/misc/cdcollect/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/multimedia/banshee/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/multimedia/gnome-subtitles/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/net/blam/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/security/openvpn-admin/
I take it that counts as “not developing anything on the platform”, yes?