The FSF speaks again on Mono, to include the Community Promise issue, and renders a verdict: The “promise is full of loopholes, and it’s nowhere near enough to make C# safe.”
One thing I really like about this article is they hit one of the mono apologists’ favorite distortions right out of the gate:
It’s true that all software patents are a threat to developers—but that doesn’t mean that all software patents are equally threatening. Different companies might have patents that could be used to attack other languages, but if we worried about every patent that could be used against us, we wouldn’t get anything done. Microsoft’s patents are much more dangerous: it’s the only major software company that has declared itself the enemy of GNU/Linux and stated its intention to attack our community with patents.
Now I’ve been preaching this gospel since Day 1. It is pure dishonesty to pretend like every company present the same risk and hostility to Linux, Free Software, or Open Source that Microsoft does. Microsoft’s hostility and desire to destroy Linux is not the fevered imaginations of wild-eyed zealots. It is documented. It is proven. It is inarguable.
Now, you may want to advance the idea that Microsoft has changed. That is a possibility, sure – but it is not documented, proven or inarguable. The safe and sane position towards Microsoft is suspicion and wariness. Microsoft made it so, not wild-eyed zealots. It also becomes on open question on what type of change it is.
You may also want to advance the idea that Microsoft’s hostility is overstated. That is a possibility, as well – but you run into a real problem with objectivity there. That is, there is no way for us to know the limits or true intention of Microsoft’s hostility. We can only know that we have more proof and evidence for Microsoft’s hostility to Linux, Free Software and Open Source than any other other entity in existence – with the arguable exception of SCO – and that we have evidence they systematically lie and disguise their intent.
What you can not honestly do, though, is to pretend like Microsoft does not have a long and documented history of unfair, illegal, and highly questionable tactics against Linux, Free Software, Open Source and even commercial competitors. You can also not pretend like it is “ancient history” or that the very same people that participated in such tactics are not still active within Microsoft.
Nonetheless, it seems if you find any discussion of Mono you will eventually run into some Mono/Microsoft apologists pretending like doubting Microsoft is irrational, if not downright cheese-eating surrender monkey cowardice. You know those hillbillies that handle snakes because they think Jesus will protect them? They aren’t brave, they are deluded. You know those guys that don’t handle snakes? They aren’t cowards, they are rational.
Offering solutions
Another nice thing that the FSF has done is to offer up an acceptable solution, as well as an invitation to Microsoft to work together to reach a real and inarguable solution.
There is an interesting point within: just as “Only Nixon could go to China”, only the FSF has the credibility to assure people that Microsoft’s offerings are valid. Novell does not have that credibility. Team Mono does not have that credibility.
When you mock the core principles of Free Software, embrace “pragmatism”, and compromise your ethics a little bit here and a little bit there, you might profit in the short term; but long term, when you go to make a stand and ask people to trust you, things are different then. In one light that is unfair, but the reality is that is what happens when you enter into anti-community and secretive deal and take $400+ million dollars from Microsoft.
Oh, and continuing to fight the FSF or rms with whatever flavor of scandal or slander you can grab doesn’t add to your credibility either. Just in case you thought it did. No, it only spreads the taint of your lack of credibility. Like a single rotten apple spoiling the barrel, so does one dishonest hateful apologist spoil a “movement”.
Sadly, this works on both sides. Which is why my arguments are always only the Purest of Logic and Reason, and I constantly refrain from personally attacking The Lying Slanderous Bastards in the Opposition.
More to come
I encourage everyone to read and think on the FSF statement. There are some interesting arguments in there, and I would like to see a much longer and detailed essay forthcoming.

#1 by Hrvat on July 20th, 2009
To me, scariest part of if all is that Ubuntu “headquarters” is afraid to ask users if they want Mono by default or not, while asking around about “ideas”, “suggestions” and “opinion”. And claiming that average user does not care! Well, maybe average Windows user would not care, but Linux AVERAGE user would.
#2 by Dan Serban on July 20th, 2009
I’d like to go one step further and make an even more refined distinction: not even all of the software patents owned by Microsoft are equally threatening.
- The patents covering Mono and the .NET APIs are dangerous. These patents are *gratuitously* infringed by the inclusion of Mono apps in live media and default install sets.
- Any patents owned by Microsoft that touch on interoperability are pretty weak. These are *necessarily* infringed patents that read on file formats and communication protocols.
See, interoperability has a special place in the hearts and minds of judges, and Microsoft knows that very well. We don’t know what the US legal system would do when push comes to shove, but in the EU there is a precedent of protecting interoperability efforts at the expense of rights holders, in Samba’s case.
Wine, Samba, and support for MS-owned file formats are all things that sprang into existence as a consequence of people’s naturally occurring requirement to coexist and interoperate with a largely Windows-dominated computing ecosystem.
Mono? Not so much. Nobody asked for Mono. It is relentlessly being shoved down our throats for the sake of those 6 people worldwide that *may* need it in order to run their legacy .NET apps.
Imagine being a judge and hearing the following argument:
“Your honor, the defendant has willfully infringed on my client’s patents by not removing Tomboy and the Mono runtime from the default install set, even when they had the choice of using a feature-by-feature equivalent application called Gnote. We therefore regard this as a gratuitous infringement on my client’s patents and ask to be properly compensated.”
(Replace Tomboy as needed with any Mono app that Gnome or [insert-name-of-popular-distro] may choose to shove down our throats in the future.)
I thus hope to have also answered the question that Jo asked of me in another thread on this blog.
#3 by JayCar on July 22nd, 2009
While I’m not sure that Nixon (otherwise known as “Tricky Dick) was a good example to use in a comparison to the FSF, I otherwise find your viewpoints to be refreshingly reasonable and well written.
I am, as an ordinary Ubuntu user, quite mystified and disheartened that Canonical cannot seem to take a firm stance on the mono issue, either one way or the other, but stays on the fence.
I don’t believe that ordinary users don’t care, I believe that ordinary users just don’t want to step into the fray. It will be interesting to see how it all gets sorted out.
Personally, it took time, determination, and hard work to get my office computers moved away from Microsoft dependency. I resent any attempts to drag my business back to it, no matter how minimally it may seem at this point. Therefore, I will take steps to make sure mono is not included on my systems. If that makes me some sort of fanatic, so be it. I just see it as the right thing to do.
#4 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
Please see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-June/000584.html for the official statement from the Ubuntu Technical Board. The TB are the highest authority when it comes to shaping the distribution (including the ability to overrule Shuttleworth), and is comprised of both Canonical employees and general community contributors.
The official firm position can be paraphrased as: “no reason to single Mono out one way or another, position subject to change in the event of a C&D (as is the case for all packages)”
#5 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
And see http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/06/16/%23ubuntu-meeting.html from 15:00 for the unedited meeting log.
#6 by JayCar on July 22nd, 2009
@ Jo Shields,
I followed your links and read the content. It all still looked like fence-sitting to me. It also seems to me, as just an observer, that Mono isn’t being singled out any more than any other software that must go through the decision-making process. Though it does seem to me that the Mono folks have taken great pains to single themselves out. Also, nothing at either of those links, or in your comments truly addressed my concerns and wishes regarding my own computers.
I believe that Mono should always be available for those that wish to use it. But if mono apps are installed by default on any of my systems, I will remove them. I’m strongly considering moving away from Ubuntu as well…but we’ll see how things go over the next several months.
#7 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
I’m not entirely sure what you wouldn’t consider fence sitting, if a resolution from the highest authority that Mono is fine isn’t enough. And, frankly, I find it bizarre how you can, in the same comment, say that it’s the Mono folks who are singling it out – and that you’ll never allow Mono apps (and only Mono apps, not any other comparable framework) onto your computer. See?
As for your other comment… I ignored it, largely because I don’t have anything to say about it which you or anyone else who feels that way would consider of value, meaning it’d be a waste of time to say it.
#8 by Hrvat on July 22nd, 2009
@Jo
So why don’t you mono guys request user poll? As neutral as can be. Why not ASK users?
Oh, and you forgot your signature: Microsoft Technology Evangelist. It’s not that you’re ashamed of evangelising MS technology now, are you?
#9 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
All polls are elective, which skews their direction heavily. Even “even” systems such as random sampling, where your sampling method introduces skew (e.g. dependence on tethered phone lines for TV rating stats). This is basic statistics.
I really don’t care about who or where technology comes from, I care about whether or not it sucks. I don’t know why people find this such a confusing concept.
#10 by Hrvat on July 22nd, 2009
@Jo
1.
So why does idea/brain-storm have votes? Why does any voting EXISTS? Or any poll? To measure “skew” or to get as representative sample as posiible? Polls exists, for a VERY GOOD reason, and that’s a FACT.
2. Oh, it’s OK. It’s just that you SHOULD put your signature every time, so that MAJORITY of people can understand your “feelings” and “reasoning” much better.
#11 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1886141,00.html
Tell me the guy who runs 4chan is the most influential person in the world, and that internet polls aren’t worthless.
When can I expect to see your “everyone who doesn’t do as I say is a Microsoft employee” signature?
#12 by Jose_X on July 22nd, 2009
I think people are underestimating the patent threat from APIs. I would like the FSF to say something about that instead of just Csharp.
All APIs can be a patent trap, and yes we can’t in practice avoid using some API or other. Of course, the threat level depends on the odds that the creator of the API took out patents to parallel the API and that they will use those patents against FOSS. Here, again, Microsoft is the big worry, and this means the dotnet API (whether you use csharp of Fsharp or dflat).
Any API can be a patent trap (in the US anyway) because of the way patents work and how general in scope they can be. See for example: LINK 1
After the API patent trap comes the extension patent trap.
I am working on a better explanation of the patent extension trap. [See LINK 2 and LINK 3 ] This is where you are allowed to get patent protection for the core spec (only). [Like the Microsoft Community Promise would do if it weren't such a large loophole.] The reason this is a trap is because of how patents are granted.
Many software patents have an initial claim that sets a given amount of context. If you look, you will see that claim 1 is large while several further claims follow that are each short but leverage claim 1. What this means is that if a new invention (claim 1 of patent 1) requires (eg) 10 items all to be present in order to avoid prior art, then those 10 claims plus one more will also avoid prior art (claim 2 of patent 1). And this can be extended across patents (or by renewing patents and adding these extensions) because the new short patent claim’s extra requirement on top of the other patent’s 10 requirements would be an invention (claim 1 of patent 2). Since the same company would own both patents, the company would not tax itself nor go for an injunction (duh).
If you wonder about “obvious” tests. Well, you might not be paying attention to what is being granted patents. Plus, any obvious test would likely not consider what a reasonable team of engineers could come up with in say 5 years (<20 years). PLUS, do you have a million bucks per patent to fight each patent to hope to show obviousness? I don't think many patents get struck down on obviousness tests.
[I'll provide LINK 1-3 when I find them, hopefully very soon. Use freepatentsonline.com to search for some software patents to get a taste of them. Eg, http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7013469.html . Despite all the noise on the page, all that really counts are each of the individual claims. ]
#13 by Hrvat on July 22nd, 2009
@Jo
1)
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
Why are there votes on brainstorm? You suggest that Ubuntu can’t make poll, or ask for votes? And your “escaping” from any vote/poll idea tells a lot.
2) Oh, twist me some more! You’re the evangelist here, not me. You’re also ashamed or afraid to claim it firmly, which shows your weakness. You know what you’re doing, and you don’t like it 100%. You like it only 99%, and that 1% is driving you insane, doesn’t it? Well, be sure to consume a LOT of pills on a daily basis
#14 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
Personally, I think brainstorm is just as valid as Time’s poll. Which is why the results of Brainstorm are treated at best as merely suggestions by the people they would be demanding implementation from.
I have no problems declaring my liking for Mono. It’s your defective mind which considers that to be an unequivocal evangelism for all Microsoft products and technologies. As for pills, I try to restrict myself to Cetirizine.
#15 by Jose_X on July 22nd, 2009
OK, I forgot to finish the prior comment.
So what is the extension trap?
Well, you can be offered real protection (the Microsoft Community Promise doesn’t even get that far) for the invention in claim 1 patent 1 (the 10 requirements) but not for anything else (like claim 2 patent 1 or claim 1 patent 2 or anything else).
So if you are working under the context of those 10 requirements thinking you are safe, you will find that to start stepping on patents, you now have to acquire potentially only a single new requirement instead of the usual say 10 requirements that might be needed to hit a distinct/independent patent. [Remember: that large initial set of requirements exists since avoiding prior art means building something sufficiently unique.]
By Microsoft providing inducements to the base requirements (ie, making core core dotnet an “open standard” and giving it “patent protection”), they entice people to use their core invention. This means Microsoft will then have a field day anticipating all requirements you might want to ever create in an app. They only need to guess one requirement at a time, however [each single additional requirement can be captured in a new dependent claim].
From the point of view of probability, it’s much more likely they will guess a single requirement than say 10 requirements exactly. Put another way, if they guess 3 of 10 new features of your new mono app, that would be three patent claims you would be violating. If you don’t use mono, then they would have to guess say those 10 things before you start to violate even a single patent.
Further, Microsoft, by virtue of their head start and the initial secrecy of each new patent, is just about the only one that can set those traps on that core invention and cash in on them.
Did I just hear, “help strengthen monopolies?”
Did I just hear, “Microsoft has a huge investment riding on dotnet patents?”
Remember that as mono apps grow in number, Microsoft’s patents grow in value, and they have a lot of patents. I’m sure some could multiply in value 100 fold or more.
I would actually not be shocked to learn that Canonical/Novell or others had arrangements to profit from some of those patents already.
So if you use mono, (a) you make it easy to fall prey to extension patents that leverage mono, and (b) the owner of the patent will almost surely be Microsoft or someone doing close business with Microsoft (eg, a contractor that likely gives Microsoft a cut of the proceeds or a patent troll).
Preserve monopolies? Make FOSS unusable without paying tolls? I don’t think so.
#16 by Jose_X on July 22nd, 2009
Jo, I hope software patents get knocked on their hiney, but, in the meantime, I don’t have a wallet willing to back me against attacks or strike deals on my behalf. And I am not looking for such a wallet, either. A developer might be able to be OK so long as you are employed and don’t mind being employed by such a wallet, but most users and yourself eventually (if you want freedom later on) won’t have that wallet.
The other issue is that if you ignore sw patents then there is no need to stick with the mono that mimics dotnet and Microsoft. Unless of course the wallet that backs you insists on that for business reasons, and you don’t want to ignore sw patents without that wallet.
#17 by Hrvat on July 22nd, 2009
@Jo
1)
You’re afraid of poll on Mono, and you just can’t hide it. No “logic” and “argument” can’t hide it. You are afraid of the result.
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/contributor/directhex/
Your voting on it shows that even “great minds” as yourself considers it somewhat the right thing to do. You aren’t telling that you voted there for “fun” or “kidding around”, are you?
2) Again, you are afraid to claim that you are MS technology evangelist. You admit it, if pushed a bit, but to claim it firmly – you lack guts. If you’ve got more, you’d evangelise much better.
#18 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
Jose, Jose, Jose. I find it mind-boggling that you can invest so much time, and so many hundreds of thousands of words, on the same topic, without being able to connect it properly to real life.
Here’s how patent suits work between corporations:
[[Company A]] Oi, Company B, you’re infringing my patent on doodadomatic froomigers! We’re *totally* gonna sue your ass.
[[Company B]] News to us. But we don’t think your patent is valid. Go away.
[[Company A]] Well, we do. We’re gonna go file a suit now. But we’ll call it quits for a mere billion pesos.
* Company A files legal paperwork, demanding eleventy billion pesos in damages
* Company B works out the cost of fighting and winning, the cost of fighting and losing, the cost of withdrawing all their froomigers from sale and altering their doodadomatic properties to avoid the patent, and the cost of just paying the scalp money
(See: Microsoft vs TomTom; Immerson vs Sony)
Here’s how it works in Free Software:
[[Company A]] Oi, FOSS Distro, you’re infringing my patent on doodadomatic froomigers! We’re *totally* gonna sue your ass.
[[FOSS Distro]] Oh, so we are. Sorry. Here, consider it ceased and desisted.
(See: Apple vs Freetype)
Your continual pushing of your theory (I remember you first creating your hypothetical “API Trap” over time on BN comment threads before declaring it to be proven fact) seems oblivious to the all-important (legally required) cease-and-desist step. And the entire “cease and desist” step is vital, since under US law, there’s an enormous legal difference between willful and accidental infringement (i.e. if you do a patent search, discover patent numbers, then later are sued for infringing those patents, then you need to pay triple damages for carrying on regardless compared to ignorant infringers; if you’ve never done any searches, then you can’t have known there was an infringement, so can simply desist when told to do so, and the case is closed).
Ubuntu’s statement reflects the real situation at a distro level: “we have no evidence of a problem – if anyone C&D’s us then we’ll C&D”.
The thought that Microsoft might sue *you* for patent infringement is… foolish. Know how much a lawyer charges per hour? With a minimum charge? No court in any country in the world would award Microsoft damages to cover even 15 minutes of a paralegal’s time for patent infringement for using Tomboy or F-Spot. In order to make money, they need to go after targets with money – which means large organizations, companies, distributors. And, as stated, Canonical will comply with any C&D they receive – and, for the extra paranoid, they’ll sell end-user patent insurance too.
If your concern is on the behalf of large companies deploying Mono (e.g. Electronic Arts), then I’m pretty sure they can afford to do their own patent analyses – and that large companies are going to be rather more concerned about “bigger fish” like the Linux kernel. Until you are advocating removal of the Linux kernel on the basis of the vague patent threats made by Ballmer, then your entire patent speech is targeted hand-wavery.
#19 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
You might be interested to note that one of the ideas I clicked “demote” on was “include moonlight-plugin-mozilla on installation LiveCDs”
I click on promote or demote on Brainstorm ideas which I comment on, in order to “participate” with those who are commenting. And I comment when people are saying things which are wrong, and affect my contributions.
I’m not “afraid” of a poll, for a few reasons – for one, they’ve been done. For another, package selections are founded on meritocracy not democracy (and those high in the meritocracy don’t care about such polls).
Frankly, I don’t want to see another poll not out of fear, but because it’s depressing to see the kind of Fauxpen Source “contributors” who crawl out of the woodwork to “contribute” to that kind of poll.
You’re an imbecile, aren’t you
#20 by zekopeko on July 22nd, 2009
Did you miss the link he have you? Online polls are notorious for their unreliability for data gathering.
They can be skewed easily. Like in the case of the Time poll. When the first name has 8 times more votes then the second and the first letters of top 10 names read “MARBLE CAKE” you have to ask yourself WTF.
And I can see how active Jo was on the brainstorm site. 11 comments and 13 votes. He really invested himself there. Let’s contrast that with some 800+ posts on Ubuntuforums and before that he had something like 14000+ posts on another forum.
This is a baseless attack. If you can’t defeat the message let’s smear the messenger, right? Ad hominem attacks, especially from anti-mono zealots are always ugly and repulsive.
.
Defending something on it’s merit as a FLOSS product doesn’t make you a MS evangelist by default. Well only in your little spiteful universe
#21 by Jose_X on July 22nd, 2009
Jo, thanks for the description there, but you didn’t really look at what I wrote did you?
You don’t appear to believe that just using mono puts you at Microsoft’s mercy. Let’s say you decide to open your mind to that possibility one day. Then..
Your story basically says that if you can afford $300,000 (albeit painfully) as an extortion payment to a troll (eg, to a Microsoft investment vehicle), then that is OK in your book. Microsoft or trolls will come knocking periodically and show proof that they own patents that sound very similar to what you are using. If you actually look at the patents and know the technology, you might even agree they are correct.
So if we don’t care about the extortion game, I guess it becomes which extortionist do we want to promote?
Are you aware that every single dollar that flows towards Microsoft, not only makes Linux uptake more difficult (and anything else that is not Microsoft owned) but actually is a dollar less that will flow towards anyone but Microsoft? It is a dollar less of control by those not high in the Microsoft World pecking order.
And how about that poverty-poor FOSS coder you mentioned? Do you truly want to invest significantly in an application or distro or anything and have to C&D? The odds of this happening grows as the quality of your product grows (and hence its visibility and threat to competitors holding these sort of patents). And what if you decide to strike out on your own when you have money?
Why surrender control to someone else needlessly?
Microsoft’s business requires monopolies. There is no healthy competition there. If they can, they will take an extra dollar or 1,000 from you.
You are probably a hopeless cause Jo, but I posted here because I know other people read it. [And thanks for replying since you always give me something to think about.]
#22 by Jose_X on July 22nd, 2009
>> What this means is that if a new invention (claim 1 of patent 1) requires (eg) 10 items all to be present in order to avoid prior art, then those 10 claims plus one more will also avoid prior art (claim 2 of patent 1).
I should have said “those 10 requirements” instead of “those 10 claims.”
[Fixed]>> What this means is that if a new invention (claim 1 of patent 1) requires (eg) 10 items all to be present in order to avoid prior art, then those 10 requirements plus one more will also avoid prior art (claim 2 of patent 1).
Also, LINK 1 = http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/04/the-api-trap-part-1/ .
#23 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
I didn’t say it was OK, I said it was the status quo. I don’t support software patents, full stop, and you can ask Archive.org for some kind of proof of that position.
Who said anything about paying anything? If you give in to the racketeering scam, then you get what you deserve (a 7 figure invoice) – the most powerful weapon against patent demands is to simply stop using those patents – make the patent worthless by not assigning it any worth.
Maybe, and I’m going out on a limb here, it should be the choice of the individual developer, distributor, etc, to make that decision? Perhaps they feel distributing OpenJDK puts them at risk of patent attacks from Kodak, perhaps they don’t. Perhaps enabling features in Freetype puts them at risk of Apple’s threats, perhaps not. And on the individual developer level, the record will show that people who actually care about their apps are both aware of the risks, and are prepared to take steps should the need arise. GNOME Do’s author, for example, has said that he’d port to Java or Vala if need be – but it was his decision to use C# (not yours) and he likes C# (and it’s not your place to tell him he’s not allowed to).
Their business is failing on that front – a
We are all “hopeless causes”, Jose. Opinions are entrenched firmly. All we have is noise.
#24 by Jo Shields on July 22nd, 2009
motherloving tab key….
AHEM.
Their business is failing on that front – and like any business, they need to adapt to survive. The big oil companies are investing in alternative fuels because they can’t afford not to, and Microsoft are trying to push into new markets as well. Silverlight was created to allow them to compete with Flash – and, as a result, sell authoring and hosting tools (Expression, Visual Studio, Windows Server). Even existence of competitors helps them, if it increases the size of their potential market. Sometimes they need to “play nice” to compete “honestly” and grow that market – which is how we’ve gone to the HyperV situation from yesterday.
As long as people are in a space that means they could *potentially* but Microsoft products, that’s a preferable situation for them compared to them being in a space where they aren’t an option. And there are many ways for them to do that. PHP 5.3 is heavily tuned to run on Windows compared to previous versions – should we drop PHP because the potential now exists for them to gain a monopoly in PHP hosting? Hell, on that front, even “questionable” parts of Mono hold value to them – if you look at deploying DekiWiki on Mono (or even MediaWiki on PHP 5.3) rather than MoinMoin on Python, then they’re in a better position to sell you Windows. Which could benefit them in the abstract.
#25 by JayCar on July 22nd, 2009
@Jo,
You’re right, in many people’s minds a resolution that Mono is “fine” could sound reassuring enough.
But what I, as a user, would consider to be reassuring would be for the highest authority (as you call it) to directly address the Microsoft and patent threat concerns. I don’t want someone to pat me on the head and say “Don’t worry, everything will be fine” without explaining their plans to deal with that problem if and when it arrives.
So, what exactly will Canonical do, how exactly will Canonical handle things if they learn they were wrong, and patent lawyers from Microsoft show up at their door demanding payment?
In one of the links you gave me, someone made a comment about a ski slope, meaning that one or two Mono based apps might not be a problem, but over time that slippery slope leads to more and more dependencies, till it could become difficult – which means, I’d assume, time-consuming and expensive – to eliminate them from Ubuntu.
So, in that eventuality, what would Canonical do? Would they roll over and pay Microsoft? Would they go to the FSF asking for help and support (after they’d been warned, no less)? Would they be willing to fight it out in court?
So, to me, getting off the fence would mean either making a definitive statement of how far they are willing to go to defend their declaration that Mono is “fine”? Or declaring that Mono, while always being available to folks that want it, will NOT be included by default.
Also, you commented to Hrvat that you really don’t care about who or where technology comes from. But I DO care, and many others obviously care too. So tell me why your carelessness should carry more weight than the concerns of others?
#26 by Jose_X on July 22nd, 2009
Jo, I know I am not scaring you, but for the benefit of others:
Changing apps, etc, can be quite expensive.
If you are a user and are heavily invested in foss dotnet apps (including things like aspdotnet pages), it is a burden to change apps or to recode (or will cost you third party money to end up back where you were), and, if you don’t deal, they can come after you for past infringement anyway. Users, distributors, etc, paying these tolls is where a lot of the money comes from to support the monopolies. Honestly, either a user doesn’t mind shelling the bucks on royalties repeatedly (and these might be modest sums) or they will change at some point and deal with the headaches. If you anticipate a significantly greater chance of having problems later on, you might simply invest in an alternative technology today (php, java, fairly standard webapps, c++, etc).
What if you maintain a single FOSS app? In this case, you also have to worry about redesigning. Changing programming languages should help on average, but it may still fall short of any given patent attack. Large parts of the plumbing of applications do not change automatically by changing languages. If you depended on system.whatever.something and leveraged this all over the app, then you may have to analyze and rework all of those calls (and you may not be able to find any auto mapping to help you). This could take lots of time for large apps. It means new rounds of debugging and alpha quality code. Extra effort comes in if the original contributors are not there. And since you probably will only try to work around the immediate patents, you can get another round or attacks later on after you thought you were about to leave alpha quality. Now, you will survive and have something, but I’d hate to be pushed into that position. You will lose users/contributors. You will spend time unable to improve the app in various ways (adding new features, debugging further, or optimizing). The larger an app and the larger number of apps you maintain (of mono investment), the larger these headaches would be. This means generally that the more improvements you add, the larger is the pit you are digging.
I am not mandating (duh) what tools developers should use. I am trying to point out problems. This would be useful to those that can manage multiple approaches and realize they don’t like the mono risks. If you like a mono a lot, you may not worry today, I know. I do hope users are paying attention and vote accordingly (or chip in accordingly, etc).
#27 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
Um, but there IS no problem, other than the one that you perceive in your mind, until it arrives. There is still, to this day, no documented case of patent infringement in Mono. There’s a general feeling in some quarters that it might be sorta risky maybe, but that’s the case for PLENTY of the average distro – and until there’s concrete moves regarding a given patent, there’s no way to give “appropriate response” to anything – there’s nothing to respond to. They can plan, and they have – “cease and desist” means exactly that. Pull the packages from the archive, pull the ISOs, and respin new ISOs with the offense removed. There, it’s gone. A day or two’s work. The bigger question of replacements for those offenses is another matter – but aren’t we told on a daily basis that Gnote is ten times more awesome than Tomboy, and Solang ten times more awesome than F-Spot, and that migration tools are for losers?
Because my carelessness results in tangible things like packages, and your concerns don’t. That sounds quite harsh when said out loud, doesn’t it? Well, sadly, that’s how a meritocracy works – people who do things achieve things and gain status. I have one simple role, which is to ensure that the Mono stack in Debian/Ubuntu is of the highest quality it can be, empowering app developers. Any decisions with what to do witht that empowerment are taken above my merit level. By developers, by the Desktop Team, by multi-millionaires like Shuttleworth saying (repeatedly) that Mono is fine, for example (and in my carefully detailed examples elsewhere, Shuttleworth is a potential target for money-hungry lawyers, you’re not). By attacking *my* position, you’re saying “you should be forbidden from packaging Free Software because I say so”, and I reject that outright.
#28 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
Don’t you think it’s a little presumptive of you to assume that people are incapable of reaching conclusions to those issues by themselves? How many developers (I can’t stress this enough, not Fauxpen Source “users”) have said “whoa, thanks Jose, without you I would never have realised that patents exist and are bad”?
Perhaps you should credit others with the intelligence to reach their own conclusions, and weigh up their own pro-con decisions regarding technology.
It’s about empowering developers to do more. I mean, $DEITY knows Visual Basic is the language of the devil, but I package mono-vbnc purely to ensure that anyone who wants to write with that horrible language is empowered to do so on a Free platform.
I don’t want to remove choice, I want to empower more choices. And perhaps some people will decide “I don’t fear being eaten by the patent monster, I’m gonna write my Linux app in C#”, as is the case for about 40 apps in Debian/Ubuntu.
It would be a first to see some chipping in. Don’t hold your breath.
There may well be a correlation between Jason here being one of the most coherent of the anti-Mono folks, and also being one of the only ones I could name who have ever done the slightest bit of “chipping in”, with his PyQt app. But it’s an incredibly rare breed who do more than purely piss and moan on forums and blogs.
#29 by JayCar on July 23rd, 2009
@ Jo,
You wrote: “Because my carelessness results in tangible things like packages, and your concerns don’t.”
Thank you for saying that. You’ve just helped me make a decision. It was Microsoft’s attitude, that those who use their software count for nothing – We were all just too stupid to bother with, after all – that made me look for alternatives.
That same attitude has apparently infected Canonical.
You also wrote: “Um, but there IS no problem, other than the one that you perceive in your mind, until it arrives.”
Well, THAT’S certainly reassuring…silly me for worrying needlessly. (if you detect a bit of sarcasm there, you’d be correct).
#30 by Jose_X on July 23rd, 2009
>> Don’t you think it’s a little presumptive of you to assume that people are incapable of reaching conclusions to those issues by themselves? How many developers (I can’t stress this enough, not Fauxpen Source “users”) have said “whoa, thanks Jose, without you I would never have realised that patents exist and are bad”?
[Allow me to shout a bit..] I have yet to see you admit/recognize/whatever that the threats vary based on the creator of the API (their propensity to develop/use/etc patent traps, etc) and aren’t just randomly distributed.
That is the basic point. When people don’t admit that, I consider that the message was not persuasive/convincing/clear enough (and, unfortunately for you, I repeat it). Of course, if someone would successfully challenge the parts of the message, then I would know that the message itself has problems (or its presentation, etc).
Crack the message or understand the implications. Is that so much to ask?
#31 by Jose_X on July 23rd, 2009
>> You also wrote: “Um, but there IS no problem, other than the one that you perceive in your mind, until it arrives.”
Jo, users want reassurance — not the “trust me” kind, but the “here is my quasi-detailed (contingency) plan” kind.
This comment above appears to be saying either “trust me, it will all be alright”.. or else it’s saying something like “don’t worry about the parachute until the ground starts to hit you.”
Point is that maybe the ground is soft or it was a dream, but people still want to be able to plan for themselves.
Users are definitely leaving (not recommending, etc) Ubuntu to some degree. The question for Canonical I guess is will this have a significant impact or will most people just not care all that much or find work-arounds. If Canonical ends up caring, then many of the contributors they pay may also be impacted as a reaction.
Change (eg, away from Ubuntu) doesn’t happen overnight, but neither is trust restored overnight once broken. Many of the pickier “mere” users complaining also have sway over what others chose (especially if they will be doing some amount of support).
Anyway, what can users expect? Are users going to start a boycott? Do their own remix? Contribute to another distro? What?
Contributors that don’t need the money or are really good will be able to do whatever they want most of the time. This is the way the system was design. It’s the fairest system, I think.
#32 by Jose_X on July 23rd, 2009
Jo, here is my peace offering before I go. [..and thanks for giving me feedback. Many people don't/can't/whatever.]
Hopefully everything will be alright. There are too many variables that are unknown today. If a person can relatively easily avoid mono (developer or user), than that is probably smart. If it is too uncomfortable doing so, then it might not be worth the cost to that individual to try and do so.
#33 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
I don’t work for Canonical.
#34 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
Those would be things to do with tangible results.
I’ve already offered to do a Mono-free respin of the Alternate installer (I lack the experience required to respin the LiveCD), were it not for lack of webhost bandwidth allocation to serve up a 700 meg file to people
Oh, and it looks like (as I warned months ago) the mononono package now officially doesn’t work on Sid/Karmic, due to a simple lack of “chipping in” towards it from the anti-Mono “team”. Let me test that in a chroot.
#35 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
Hm, no, for some reason mono-runtime still depends on libmono0. It shouldn’t, as eliminating that saves 2.7 meg. Let’s see…..
Hm, seems like the profiler libs are linked against it. I don’t think those are needed in a default install, do you? Scheduling for cleanup.
#36 by JayCar on July 23rd, 2009
@ Jo,
“I don’t work for Canonical.”
Obviously. Perhaps that’s why you don’t care what happens to them or the people that rely on their software. That why it’s easy for you to be “careless.” My gripe is that they allow it to happen.
#37 by zekopeko on July 23rd, 2009
What is this supposed to mean? Do you want to scare people? If so what is the difference between Microsoft and you?
In what language you write an app is not up to as a user, now is it? It’s up to the developers who are far more invested in the applications future then you, as a user, are. Developers are also the ones that ultimately weight the risk of patents.
If you want to use it, it’s up to you, simple as that.
Please do tell me how are you not mandating in what language developers write their applications, if you remove the possibly that said applications are going to be included in the default install of a large distribution, thereby not rewarding developers time and effort through more users,exposure and thereby more contributions and a higher quality of the application as a consequence? You are punishing meritocracy, (one of) the cornerstone of FLOSS’s success.
#38 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
Mono was first allowed into Ubuntu’s default system by Matt Zimmerman, Ubuntu’s CTO. Mark Shuttleworth has stated, on the record, multiple times, that he doesn’t have a problem with Mono. I care what happens because Ubuntu is the distro I run and contirbute towards – but your implication that they somehow don’t *know* about it is actually pretty insulting to them (“you obviously don’t understand what you’re doing” kind of thing)
You can be critical of *their* views on the matter, of course, for… I dunno, putting themselves at risk for some reason or other?
#39 by zekopeko on July 23rd, 2009
So you shouldn’t be responsible for your actions and potential risks from those actions but only rewards?
Here:
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid/assurance
http://www.novell.com/licensing/ntap/
http://www.redhat.com/rhel/details/assurance/
http://www.microsoft.com/iplicensing/IPindemnification.aspx
They care. Ubuntu included.
#40 by vexorian on July 25th, 2009
Freedom, cute stuff, and I agree. Please keep filling repositories with choices.
Some of us just do not find the idea of having it in the default. That’s all. Why? Well, I think a lot has been said already. Let’s leave it that way?
Few of us really opposes to having it in the repos, or to people coding in it. I would actually be equally opposed if the default app for playing music in ubuntu was a Java one… In my case it is more of a form of NIH syndrome, we should try to give tools created in the Linux, open source, free software community in what currently is the poster child of Linux. Call me a zealot, but it makes it very hard to me to promote it. There is the little detail of the legal part still not being at all clear, but again, a lot has been said and will still be said already by both sides.
#41 by neighborlee on July 27th, 2009
It is ridiculous to assume Microsoft has entirely benign intentions when it comes to linux ( etc.), though this latest attempt to reassure us might have had some believing so initially anyway.
We know their track record, so do the courts, and its a very long one as we all know, this is fact not fiction.
So you would of course excuse those who consider mono a inappropriate risk to FOSS, which many ( regardless of social status ? ) depend on for their everyday needs.
If we needed mono for some earth shattering application maybe to defend against alien attack or something,- hm that might be a worthwhile risk o_0,- barring that who are you kidding, except those who are not knowledgeable about all the facts. Buyer beware.
I use some non FOSS, but I do so at a very tiny risk margin because I trust the company involved due to its track ‘record’ , and Im sure you probably do as well.
Tomboy is settled due to gnotes, fspot replacement is solang it sure seems ( great news ), so what does that leave as a dependency for mono ?. There is no app or service that is so crucial to the usefulness of any given linux distribution that we need to pull in mono for it. Let it reside in peace in the repo’s, where its a ‘choice’ , a hallmark linux trait.
What a novel idea, and why I feel Fedora 11 is a good move in that direction; choice matters , not force.
I’ll cheer one day Microsoft and linux coexist in the same software universe peacefully, but its not today, and those that take steps to protect themselves should feel no shame in doing so.
cheers
neighborlee
#42 by Dan Serban on July 27th, 2009
@Jo Shields
I think I’ll take you up on this offer.
You don’t have to host the ISO on your website, that’s what torrents are for.
I promise to seed the torrent for as long as it takes until it takes off on its own. I know at least 20 people who would love to join the swarm if I told them what it’s about.
What I’d expect from you is to host the torrent file and some basic info such as the md5sum etc.
Deal?
#43 by Jason on July 27th, 2009
@Jo / @Dan
Well hell, if there’s going to be volunteers, I’ll host/seed and help in any way needed as well.
I’d love to learn more about that side of the house anyway, so I can spin up my own Death Metal/Kawaii Bitches flavor of Ubuntu.
#44 by Jo Shields on July 27th, 2009
Whom do you think holds more credibility when it comes to a release – you or me? If you keep it confidential (NDA!), I could pass you some internal documentation relating to our D-I customization (and bootstrapping) procedure, to allow you to do it yourself. Difference being I know how to do it already, so can knock up a package-reduced ISO in about an hour (but not until I get home, I need my GPG key). But I’m me, so there may be… trust issues. There’s delicious irony in doing it myself, mind.
#45 by Jason on July 27th, 2009
@Jo,
I’m just volunteering to help. I’m not sure it is necessary to take a shot at people’s credibility.
#46 by Jo Shields on July 27th, 2009
It wasn’t a shot, it was a question. You expressed a desire to do it yourself, and really, it’s a 1-man (assuming required knowledge) job. I was offering access to the docs I wrote to allow co-workers to reproduce what I did. The docs are a few years old, but useful things like “sudo mkisofs -r -V “UbuntOSC Install CD” -cache-inodes -J -l -b isolinux/isolinux.bin -c isolinux/boot.cat -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table -o /path/to/create/UbuntOSC.iso .” remain
#47 by Jo Shields on July 28th, 2009
Spun, tested. Second time lucky (and the first version was fine, it just contains 2 bugs I realized on the drive home)
#48 by Dan Serban on July 28th, 2009
Excellent. Eagerly awaiting.
#49 by Jo Shields on July 28th, 2009
linuxtracker.org seems to not want to talk to me. Any bright ideas for a bittorrent tracker?
#50 by Dan Serban on July 28th, 2009
A couple are listed here:
http://vivapinkfloyd.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-to-create-torrent-and-start-seeding.html
I’ll look for more.