I’m sorry you think the only thing I have against Mono is patent concerns. I tried to make the whole “Does Mono hurt Microsoft” piece reflect non-patent related concerns.

One of my concerns is that the more successful the fruits of the Novell-Microsoft deal are, the more encouraged other companies will be to strike up such anti-community deals.

Mono is a side beneficiary of the deal, and Moonlight a direct beneficiary of it, so I think that is a reasonable thing to be brought into the discussion as well.

The “facebook” thing was from another post where someone (in all apparent seriousness) suggested that starting a Facebook account would be more useful than this blog:

Contact Microsoft. Lobby. Make your views known to them directly. Start a Facebook group about it. Do something useful.

@Jason:
Let’s face it – it seems like you don’t have *anything* against mono, except for the fact that there are potential patent concerns. The remaining posts are defending Mono critics, and pointing out how mono might actually become a more important part of the open source ecosystem than it already is.

It’s time everyone started thinking about finding solutions than broadcasting and defending opinions. I’m sick and tired of opinions and have learnt firsthand that nobody will ever agree with anyone’s opinion on things.

All this Faux nonsense aside the way I see it:
Pro mono camp – Developers who find this technology and stack better, and couldn’t care less if it came from microsoft or the third reich.

Anti mono camp – Foss enthusiasts who are worried about patent threats and are uncomfortable with the concept of having Microsoft’s technology on their machines.

You or me will ever understand Jo’s or Miguel’s point of view because we didn’t spend many years of our lives working on something. And even if I did, I don’t want other people to dismiss it without truly understanding why I did that.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

I see what you are saying, but I think there is a little too much of grouping all critics together there.

I don’t think we’ve reached the point here where everything is re-repeated, one-sided and tireless – at least I don’t think my blog entries are repetitive, I’ve been trying to cover a different point each time.

The problem with advocating “peaceful coexistance” is that really means “mono critics shut up”. Right? And I already posted what I thought about that.

Anyway, we will see how things shake out here in the near future.

Jason :

Just so I am clear:

Just so I’m clear. You are viewing everything I said with your “I just read lefty’s faux fundies post” glasses so you believe I’m attacking you based on his view. This is not the case. Attribute those thoughts to my poor writing skills.

1. You are now on board with Lefty, asserting that I am not a member of the “real” community?

A better word would be “mainstream” (fringe vs mainstream that sort of deal) community. I’m not lumping you in with Roy and the crazies ( (nor am I close to taking such a stance).

2a. I need a “comparable application set” to be taken seriously? Exactly how many lines of code do I have to release to join you guys?
2b. If I can produce that many lines of code, do all my arguments suddenly become Y% more credible? Do I suddenly become immune to being pushed into the “faux” community on some other grounds?

As stated above I don’t push you into the “faux” category. But my belief remains that you would better serve the community in a more productive/less divisive role then this blog.

3. Everything I have posted on this blog is “ranting”? I have raised no rational or reasonable points?

Quote’s are your friend here. Was pointing out the volume and number of your posts not your reasoning. Non-verbal signs really make online conversing hard sometimes.

4. I (or someone I referenced in support) has demanded developers choose or do not choose a specific platform?

By trying to ostracize Mono this is one of the indirect results. Unless you have some other hidden agenda that I’m missing.

5a. I post in “huge” volume

From my perspective yes.

5b. This is a bad thing?

Well considering the estimated time you spend on this blog we go back to the 2nd part of the answer I gave concerning 2a and 2b.

I just want to get the goalposts nailed down.

American football or soccer?

I’ve been following Lefty’s talks as well about the real and “faux” community. It’s one thing to put up your opinions and defend them in the comments and reason them out so that other people might change theirs – that’s perfectly acceptable.

But the FOSS community will not change. The people who write code using/for mono will want to defend their platform, and the people who write code on other platforms will never know what the fuss is all about.

The issue when it starts to bother me – is when you call these writings significant ‘contributions’. It might enlighten some people and change some opinions, but when it’s re-repeated, one-sided and tireless, it ceases to really benefit the community. There might not be too many situations when Roy’s articles brought about a significant, positive impact on the community.

Talk to a real lawyer and find out a credible idea about what might happen. Try to look at points from both sides, and aim for peaceful coexistance so that the users will be benefited.

In my state, controlled by a communist state government, people start striking and boycotting for very minor issues, leading it to be one of the poorer and backward states in the country as most people are interested in arguing rather than debating.

What concerns me that everyone’s more concerned with having an intellectual argument and debating, quoting and misquoting everyone else’s points. So here’s mine:

Mono won’t go away. It’s been here for 8 years or so and attracted so much controversy only in the last few months. We need to find a consensus so that we can all get back to writing good applications for the users.

If you prove mono is bad, and have it taken away so that it’ll avoid potential risks, it’s similarly akin to taking away someone’s car so they’ll avoid potential accidents.

1. You are now on board with Lefty, asserting that I am not a member of the “real” community?

2a. I need a “comparable application set” to be taken seriously? Exactly how many lines of code do I have to release to join you guys?

2b. If I can produce that many lines of code, do all my arguments suddenly become Y% more credible? Do I suddenly become immune to being pushed into the “faux” community on some other grounds?

3. Everything I have posted on this blog is “ranting”? I have raised no rational or reasonable points?

4. I (or someone I referenced in support) has demanded developers choose or do not choose a specific platform?

5a. I post in “huge” volume

5b. This is a bad thing?

I just want to get the goalposts nailed down.

Jason :

…your time would be better spent coding.

So you are privy to my daily schedule? You can decide how another man should spend his time?
But if a mono critic should suggest that perhaps a developer’s effort would be better spent on a non-C# language, that is anathema?

It was my opinion, a suggestion, not a demand. I was merely voicing my opinion that a persons time with unique skills would certainly help far more the FLOSS community then this site. I think that FSF covers that niche rather nicely.
Let’s also mention that if you had a comparable application set to Banshee/Tomboy/Gnome-do/etc with a strong community around them, your (and others) “ranting” would be far better taken then in the “true” community because you would have code to show for.
It’s not like I can compile your blog postings and use them on my desktop.
What I do believe is an anathema, is when people demand developers that have already chosen their language/platform of choice to abandon it for another. And what’s even worse is that “those” people demand it for purely ideological reasons.

Surely you see in impossibility of holding both positions at the same time. You can not criticize my use of time and talents and at the same time assert that others can not be criticized for the same thing.

Just to strengthen my position on this: I do not decide how you spend your time. It’s up to you. I have no control over you nor I wish it.

What I can criticize is your logic that my suggestion how you spend your time could be better used contributing code/localization/etc. instead of posting (in huge volume), is somehow comparable to demands that one shouldn’t code in a specific language (that the person chose no less) and that a FLOSS platform should me marginalized.
I’d like to mention that writing code is far less divisive and more beneficial to the community then posts attacking applications written in a specific language.

And again: I do not want you to stop posting. It (free speech) is your right as much as it’s mine.