It’s always fascinating to watch a little demagogue work.
Real and “Faux” Community?
Lately, “Lefty” Schlesinger has been trying to push this “real”/”faux” community line, where he decides who is a community member and who is not. It starts up in his comments on ITWire, and he now has a blog post about it.
I get mentioned in both places. Nice.
About Me
I have been attacked here repeatedly for being “anonymous”. Here’s the funny thing about that: I never intended to be anonymous. I’m using my real name, and never tried to hide anything. Several people I exchanged email with got email from any one of my random mail accounts, for example. A couple of people directly guessed who I was, which was strangely ego-boosting.
Also, think about that for a second. Do you really think someone is so scared of pro-mono people that they need to go anonymous? I mean I don’t like what they are doing, but I don’t think Team Mono is going to send guys around to rough me up or something. I don’t expect any abuse at all actually, because I don’t think they are evil people and I’ve said so many times.
Or is the idea that I should be so ashamed of having an opinion that I just naturally hide my identity?
Or do people really think other people are “scared” to stand behind what they say?
It’s just foolishness, the whole bit. Not a lick of sense in it.
About this site
I started this site because I honestly think the Novell-Microsoft deal and Mono and Moonlight represent a net loss to the community, and I don’t know of a place where you can go to talk about that rationally.
I argue my points to the best of my ability, and I listen to what mono advocates have to say, even specifically addressing points they raise. I doubt I have changed anyone’s mind, nor have I changed mine but I have learned some things and came to understand some points I did not.
I challenge anyone to read this blog and not come away thinking at least there is an effort at dialogue. It’s not a echo hate chamber filled with nutbars. I dish it out strong, sure – but there are some pro-mono people that have dished it back and I thank them for that. If you search, you might even find me acknowledging when someone makes a point. Shocking, I know – the idea that you might not be 100% correct and the opposition 100% wrong.
I also like to think this site at least tries to remain civil, especially considering the divisiveness and controversy of the subject matter. I’ve gotten thanks for providing a more reasonable site where people can air concerns about this issue, and I’m happy about that.
So, I consider this site a positive contribution, even as I recognize some people would rather it not exist.
About Lefty
I want everyone to pay very close attention to what Lefty has said, and how he has said it. He constantly attempts to position himself as the ultimate arbitrator of what is right and wrong, who is sexist and who is not, who is in the real community and who is not.
I challenge anyone to remove yourself from your position and read his writings on the whole rms issue and this latest real/faux community issue with a list of demogogy methods as a convenient reference. I do not exaggerate when I tell you he employs every listed fallacy multiple times.
He attempts to set himself up as judge and jury of who is and is not worthy. He tries to designate himself as the gatekeeper for the community, based solely on his personal judgment on the other individual. He flatly advocates explusion or shunning those people he deems non-contributors, even though he lacks the authority, evidence or right to attempt such a thing. It strikes me as quite megalomanical.
I want to stress the point so it is perfectly clear: Lefty has asserted publicly and in multiple venues that I make no contributions to the “real” community and should be shunned, even though he has no evidence for his position, nor does he even know who I am.
Think on that. And then read on.
In which Lefty is pwned
Here is Lefty’s characterization of myself:
What I am seeing is people making a pretense of involvement in FLOSS and in our community, people who we don’t actually know, people who never join us at conferences, don’t work in projects, and only participate in mailing lists to instigate flame wars. I am seeing people who seem to be making a sort of religion out of “free software” and issuing their demands to the rest of us to do things their way. These are people who will excoriate you as something less than a “true GNU/Linux user” if you should touch a Macintosh or (heaven forbid!) a Windows box. These are folks who will berate you for buying a piece of software or owning an iPod. These are people who will classify you as a “freedom hater” if you express reservations about the GPL v3.
Well, guess what? (I’m sure you knew this was coming:)
- Here’s my homepage.
- Here’s my other blog.
- Here’s my GPL project.
- Here’s my other GPL project, in which I used some non-GPL code.
- Here’s a GPL project I contributed to.
- Here’s the LUG I belong to.
- I own two iPods.
- I buy games for Linux.
- I even use (shudder) nVidia proprietary video drivers.
There’s my character, shall we proceed next to the assassination portion of this evening’s program?
Now, I want to pause here and quote directly from that Wikipedia demagogy article:
Demonization — identifying others as a mortal threat. Often this involves scapegoating — blaming others for one’s own problems. This is often advanced by using vague terms to identify the opposition group and then stereotyping that group. This allows the demagogue to exaggerate this group’s influence and ascribe any trait to them by identifying that trait in any individual in the group. This method can be aided by constructing a false dilemma that portrays opposition groups as having a value system that is the polar opposite of one’s own, as opposed to simply having different priorities.
I am not exaggerating or engaging in hyperbole when I call Lefty a demagogue. That is exactly and precisely what he is. A textbook definition, in fact.
In the aftermath of absolute pwnage, one man stands alone.
So, “Lefty” do I qualify to be a member of the “real” community? Can I express my opinion, please? Will an apology for your unfounded assumptions and baseless attacks now be forthcoming?
Ha, ha. No, seriously I don’t expect an apology. I expect a nice tap dancing show as the goalposts are moved. Like the scuttling of a cockroach as the light turns on in the kitchen, one quivering leg disappearing under the sink counter, to gather strength and return later to foul the area.
So Lefty, from Jason “ushimitsudoki” Melton, straight out of Yomitan, Okinawa, Japan:
Kiss my gaijin ass you sad little man.
I stand behind everything I have written on this blog as my best effort to explain my thinking and to try to understand others on the Mono controversy. I welcome those who want to discuss it, and reject those who want to silence it.
[[I edited this post to remove part of the entire Wikipedia definition, to prevent people focusing on that. It's not relevant to the matter at hand, but people seem to latch on to whatever thin strand of justification they can. I removed related comments as well.]]

#1 by Lefty on July 23rd, 2009
tl; dr
#2 by Jason on July 23rd, 2009
@Lefty,
Thank you for proving my point!
#3 by Lex on July 23rd, 2009
One comment seems to be missing…
#4 by Jason on July 23rd, 2009
A lot of them are missing actually. It’s quite surprising how quickly the attacks began. I removed the more offensive stuff – edit note is at the bottom of the post.
#5 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
I actually saw you outed a while back in the #boycottnovell logs. Finding your app on Launchpad as a result was sufficient for me to upgrade you in my mind from “Forenza” to “Millan” grouping. I opted not to reveal it anywhere because it would be funnier when announcing ScaleCalK, a C#/Qyoto port of SCalculator. Except, sadly, it fell outside my 1-hour “worth the effort for lulz” window, and didn’t seem worth the bother.
So I agree with Lefty’s sentiments regarding Faux-pen Source contributors – but since I found the details previously omitted, I haven’t been categorizing you amongst them – at the loopier end of the “real” community, perhaps, but you actually DO have something to your name to demonstrate contribution. Lefty is free to disagree with my assessment, of course.
#6 by Jason on July 23rd, 2009
@Jo,
Thanks for that man. I know you strongly disagree with me, so it means a lot to me to hear that. /not in a gay way, like vikings
There is someone really pressuring me (in a friendly way) to try to port Scalculator to Mono. He’s about got me half-convinced to do it.
I still have the old C# 1.0 code, but I don’t know how much that would be useful. I also am not sure I want to go down that road just yet. It is a very difficult proposition.
#7 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
I think one thing that put me off is that I don’t really have any desire to do a “straight port” as it were, where C#->C++ has plenty of relatively equivalent paradigms, but Python->C# a lot less so. If the aim of the exercise is to “experience what people are going on about”, I’d suggest an “inspired by” rewrite using all the Mono people’s first-class tools – MonoDevelop, Gtk#, Mono.Addins, and so on. Fr’example, a proper Gtk# app should be cross-platform to Windows and Mac, whereas I don’t even know how portable a Qyoto app is between distros (but it might be interesting to find out). Through clever use of Mono.Addins, you could have a pluggable UI infrastructure to a headless core set of functions (the way you have your CLI and Qt interfaces now, you could end up with drop-in interfaces using anything from Mono.Curses to Moonlight). Oh, and for the “full” experience, asking for help on the appropriate mailing lists & IRC channels would be part of it, I reckon
At any rate, this is merely suggestive. I’d encourage you to write your “pet” app not in the framework du jour, but in the one you feel most comfortable with. The aim isn’t enforcement, but empowerment. You should feel empowered to go “okay, I see a VB.NET compiler here, why would I use that instead of Vala?”, fr’example.
Oh, and consider non-C# languages if you want to. Boo might be to your liking, it might not. MonoDevelop’s GUI designer only supports C# though (but you can mix and match languages used in different assemblies, e.g. have a C# GUI on top of an IronPython core; the Boo add-in for MonoDevelop is written in Boo)
#8 by theodor on July 23rd, 2009
I’m not really enriching the discussion, just chiming in to tell you that from an observing user’s point of view, the pro/anti-mono equivalencies in terms of quality/fairness of arguments and rhetoric character look like this:
Jo Shields :: Jason
Lefty :: The guys at boycottnovell
Keep up the entertainment
#9 by tacone on July 23rd, 2009
I’m not sure why one has to demonstrate some kind of code contribution to have his opinion considered.
https://launchpad.net/rapache
(oh look, it lets you configure mono under apache)
#10 by Dan Serban on July 23rd, 2009
Um. I’d like to suggest a different definition for a FOSS contributor.
You can contribute in many, many ways, not just by writing code.
For instance, 10 people permanently switching to Linux – or choosing to buy a Linux machine – will have the same impact as say one programmer writing 100 lines of code.
Those 10 people will contribute to the overall industry-visibility of Linux. Hardware vendors writing their own Linux drivers, or at least releasing specs was a result of both Linux being a usable platform *and* of people switching to it.
#11 by Jo Shields on July 23rd, 2009
Blech. It felt much much easier to dismiss you before you posted that link. You can consider yourself mentally categorized alongside Robert too, then. T’other group now gets titled “Roy”
#12 by zekopeko on July 23rd, 2009
I’m amazed how people miss the whole point. Contributors come in various ways. If an average user posts in the forums his problem that is a contribution. How? Because we now know what the problem is. We can gather further information and file bug report (developers LOVE bug report with lot’s of info) and are there by making FLOSS better. All the people involved during the process are contributors.
Even if no bug is exposed the user is helped with transitioning to her’s new Linux system by (hopefully) friendly people on the forum/IRC. More users means more chances for discovering bugs and improving the software for all involved. It’s a positive development.
Contrast that with “faux” fundies that approach everything negatively. “Microsoft has to be destroyed so that FLOSS lives” type of bullshit. Spreading lies against people, even going so far as to viciously ATTACK them in real life just because they don’t subscribe to their vision of FLOSS.
No wonder lefty is fucking pissed. I’m fucking pissed that lefty has to be pissed about this shit.
This kind of shit was tolerated long enough. This isn’t lefty’s crusade, he is simple the first that REALLY had enough of this shit and acted on it. And he was fucking super tolerant about this. The people that attacked him tried to get him FIRED!
Those the point sink in? Or are we still going to have debate on semantics, who is a contributor and who isn’t?
#13 by Jason on July 23rd, 2009
@zekopeko,
Is all that profanity really necessary?
I’m slightly surprised you chose to defend Lefty, but I’m really surprised you chose to do so in such a manner.
#14 by zekopeko on July 23rd, 2009
I was just blowing some steam. Political correctness be damned. And if it bothers you, you can replace the offending words with * if you wish.
You missed the point if you think that this is about lefty. It’s about the vicious attacks against people in the community.
#15 by Lex on July 24th, 2009
“You missed the point if you think that this is about lefty. It’s about the vicious attacks against people in the community.”
You mean something like attacks on RMS?
#16 by zekopeko on July 24th, 2009
I don’t see people trying to fire RMS (does he even have a job?). Or attacking him unjustly. Or trying to spread damaging rumors to him.
#17 by jcwarrior on July 24th, 2009
Jason, this is probably going to be off topic, or maybe not. It just came to my attention a statement from Linus Torvalds that says the following:
I am commenting on this and not on the issue with Mr. Schlesinger because I think that what Linus Torvalds is saying is relevant. Also notice that this is posted on Mr. Schlesinger’s blog. I’ve posted a comment there too in the exact same blog post that quotes Linus Torvalds but at the moment of writing this (24 jul 2009 03:08:27 -0500), it has not been published due to moderation.
The comment I posted there says the following:
Now, I mention this because I would like to know your opinion and others opinions about this. I’ve been following your blog with much interest, and I believe that this particular issue is worth discussing.
#18 by Jason on July 24th, 2009
@jcwarrior,
Thank you for the comment and kind words!
Yes, I saw that statement and have to give it due consideration before posting on it. It is provocative!
#19 by Apollo11CAPCOM on July 24th, 2009
I perceive ther is a growing trend out there:
Trying to divide the FOSS world between “Open Source” and “Free Software”. People on the “just open source” camp focus on the developers and on technical issues, whereas Free Software’s focus is THE USER’S RIGHST AND FREEDOMS, which, for many, is inconvenient.
Notice the Debian software guidelines state clearly that the focus of the project are THE USERS.
The GPL’s focus as well is to counter the effects of the traditional proprietary licences (eg. the EULAS) and to give back the rights and freedoms to THE USERS.
Notice that, in the Free Software world, the distinction between user and developer (which is so convenient to the traditional business model of the proprietary software companies) does not apply anymore proper, since the *freedoms* to use, modify, study and re-distribute the program is what allows any user to become a developer at any time they want (or can) while at the same time does not preclude any developer to become a user of anyone else’s work. It is this sense of ethical sharing-alike what allows to build a community. Free software is about collaboration and inclusiveness, not about competition and exclusiveness.
Discrediting the Free Software Foundation, and the people who stands for the values it defends and who values ethics and other’s freedoms over technical considerations or money is a growing trend and a way of weakening and dividing the FOSS community, selecting just the “OSS” part and marginalising the ethical and philosophical part (for example appending it everywhere pejorative connotations like “politics”,”zealotry”,”fanatism”,”unpracticality”,”unpragmatism”, etc, etc…
Now insert the corporate interest in it and you see there is the risk that they separate and take away the “freedom” part and just allow open source as a cheap way of getting developer and bugfixers manpower, taking away the commons and imposing new barriers of entry to users, in the form of patent royalties, obstacles to become a developer of a project if they happen to be not in the best interest of the corporation sponsoring a part of it, etc…
#20 by Robert Millan on July 25th, 2009
LOL
#21 by Robert Millan on July 25th, 2009
Btw, I really don’t approve of this line of thinking. I reject the idea that my opinion is better than someone else’s just because I write code for GRUB and a bunch other projects.
For one thing, I think Stefano’s sense of humour is much better than mine.
#22 by Robert Millan on July 25th, 2009
In other words: hating Microsoft is sine qua non requisite for advocating free software. In Linus’ mind it’s not conceiveable that you could care about freedom without hating anyone.
The scary thing is that I don’t think he’s liing. He believes in what he said.
Now tell me, who’s the extremist?
#23 by vexorian on July 25th, 2009
Heh, honestly there’s too much focus on developers and people going to conferences.
It is amazing that for convenience the Mono crowd would prefer to dismiss the possibility of users having a saying. But well, this sort of developer sense of superiority is not exactly a mistake only the Mono fans will fall of, many developers everywhere, no matter the technology or the group fall in that sad ideology.
It amazes when people try to trivialize GNU’s way of thought as a religion, it is true some guys out there are kind of crazy. But the whole thing with the FSF and the GPL is to protect users from some developers that try to use drug dealer techniques for business. As a programmer I found it very annoying, but in my user incarnation I value it more and more. I think that using proprietary software is closer to a religion, because you are giving a lot of blind faith on some corporation or group of developers. But that’s just me…
Honestly Jason, it is not like “Lefty” is really that important as a developer anyway. I don’t get why should mono-nono give so much attention to this guy. Don’t feed the troll.
#24 by Phuk Gatekeepers on July 26th, 2009
I find it extremely offensive that anyone would suggest that one must earn the right to speak one’s mind. I wouldn’t be surprised if “Lefty” believes that voters should be required to pass a competency test. (I presume “Lefty” refers to his handedness, since he doesn’t behave like someone from the political left. Based on what I’ve read from him, George Lakoff would most likely identify him with the conservative mindframe.)
Phuk gatekeepers. Just keep preaching the truth, brother. You don’t have to justify yourself to anyone. I wish you hadn’t tried, TBH. Like you said, the gatekeepers will only move the gate; they’ll never let you pass through it. I can hear their thoughts as they read your post: “Whoopty-frickin’-doo, a scale calculator! Move over Linus!” (Very cool BTW; I play guitar!
) Those who rail against anonymity aren’t looking for assurance of your competence; they want ammunition to attack you with.
#25 by Jason on July 26th, 2009
@Phuck Gatekeepers and @vexorian
Thanks for the kind words of support!
#26 by Jo Shields on July 26th, 2009
Jason, did you delete one of my posts? I’m pretty sure I linked to the homepage of one of Roy’s commenters (and, some believe, the infamous Mark Fink) in reply to the question “Now tell me, who’s the extremist?”
I thought it was an adequate example of extremism, given the Nazi-Windows symbol on there and all
#27 by Jason on July 26th, 2009
@Jo,
I don’t think so. Is this the link?
http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/24/on-linus-and-free-software/#comment-648
#28 by Jo Shields on July 27th, 2009
Yeah. I blame nyu for cross-posting the same reply to different threads!