Comments on: Coming out of the closet http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/ Fire is the one, who inspires and protects truth. Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:04:36 +0900 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Jo Shields http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-720 Jo Shields Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:03:13 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-720 <blockquote cite="#comment-body-706"> <strong><a href="#comment-706" rel="nofollow">Jason</a> :</strong> @Jo, I don’t think so. Is this the link? <a href="http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/24/on-linus-and-free-software/#comment-648" rel="nofollow">http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/24/on-linus-and-free-software/#comment-648</a> <a></a> </blockquote> Yeah. I blame nyu for cross-posting the same reply to different threads!

Jason :

@Jo,
I don’t think so. Is this the link?
http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/24/on-linus-and-free-software/#comment-648

Yeah. I blame nyu for cross-posting the same reply to different threads!

]]> By: Jason http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-706 Jason Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:29:06 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-706 @Jo, I don't think so. Is this the link? http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/24/on-linus-and-free-software/#comment-648 @Jo,

I don’t think so. Is this the link?
http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/24/on-linus-and-free-software/#comment-648

]]> By: Jo Shields http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-703 Jo Shields Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:41:27 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-703 Jason, did you delete one of my posts? I'm pretty sure I linked to the homepage of one of Roy's commenters (and, some believe, the infamous Mark Fink) in reply to the question "Now tell me, who’s the extremist?" I thought it was an adequate example of extremism, given the Nazi-Windows symbol on there and all Jason, did you delete one of my posts? I’m pretty sure I linked to the homepage of one of Roy’s commenters (and, some believe, the infamous Mark Fink) in reply to the question “Now tell me, who’s the extremist?”

I thought it was an adequate example of extremism, given the Nazi-Windows symbol on there and all

]]> By: Jason http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-697 Jason Sun, 26 Jul 2009 04:27:52 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-697 @Phuck Gatekeepers and @vexorian Thanks for the kind words of support! @Phuck Gatekeepers and @vexorian

Thanks for the kind words of support!

]]> By: Phuk Gatekeepers http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-696 Phuk Gatekeepers Sun, 26 Jul 2009 03:48:59 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-696 I find it extremely offensive that anyone would suggest that one must earn the right to speak one's mind. I wouldn't be surprised if "Lefty" believes that voters should be required to pass a competency test. (I presume "Lefty" refers to his handedness, since he doesn't behave like someone from the political left. Based on what I've read from him, George Lakoff would most likely identify him with the conservative mindframe.) Phuk gatekeepers. Just keep preaching the truth, brother. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone. I wish you hadn't tried, TBH. Like you said, the gatekeepers will only move the gate; they'll never let you pass through it. I can hear their thoughts as they read your post: "Whoopty-frickin'-doo, a scale calculator! Move over Linus!" (Very cool BTW; I play guitar! :) ) Those who rail against anonymity aren't looking for assurance of your competence; they want ammunition to attack you with. I find it extremely offensive that anyone would suggest that one must earn the right to speak one’s mind. I wouldn’t be surprised if “Lefty” believes that voters should be required to pass a competency test. (I presume “Lefty” refers to his handedness, since he doesn’t behave like someone from the political left. Based on what I’ve read from him, George Lakoff would most likely identify him with the conservative mindframe.)

Phuk gatekeepers. Just keep preaching the truth, brother. You don’t have to justify yourself to anyone. I wish you hadn’t tried, TBH. Like you said, the gatekeepers will only move the gate; they’ll never let you pass through it. I can hear their thoughts as they read your post: “Whoopty-frickin’-doo, a scale calculator! Move over Linus!” (Very cool BTW; I play guitar! :) ) Those who rail against anonymity aren’t looking for assurance of your competence; they want ammunition to attack you with.

]]> By: vexorian http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-668 vexorian Sat, 25 Jul 2009 01:49:52 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-668 Heh, honestly there's too much focus on developers and people going to conferences. It is amazing that for convenience the Mono crowd would prefer to dismiss the possibility of users having a saying. But well, this sort of developer sense of superiority is not exactly a mistake only the Mono fans will fall of, many developers everywhere, no matter the technology or the group fall in that sad ideology. It amazes when people try to trivialize GNU's way of thought as a religion, it is true some guys out there are kind of crazy. But the whole thing with the FSF and the GPL is to protect users from some developers that try to use drug dealer techniques for business. As a programmer I found it very annoying, but in my user incarnation I value it more and more. I think that using proprietary software is closer to a religion, because you are giving a lot of blind faith on some corporation or group of developers. But that's just me... Honestly Jason, it is not like "Lefty" is really that important as a developer anyway. I don't get why should mono-nono give so much attention to this guy. Don't feed the troll. Heh, honestly there’s too much focus on developers and people going to conferences.

It is amazing that for convenience the Mono crowd would prefer to dismiss the possibility of users having a saying. But well, this sort of developer sense of superiority is not exactly a mistake only the Mono fans will fall of, many developers everywhere, no matter the technology or the group fall in that sad ideology.

It amazes when people try to trivialize GNU’s way of thought as a religion, it is true some guys out there are kind of crazy. But the whole thing with the FSF and the GPL is to protect users from some developers that try to use drug dealer techniques for business. As a programmer I found it very annoying, but in my user incarnation I value it more and more. I think that using proprietary software is closer to a religion, because you are giving a lot of blind faith on some corporation or group of developers. But that’s just me…

Honestly Jason, it is not like “Lefty” is really that important as a developer anyway. I don’t get why should mono-nono give so much attention to this guy. Don’t feed the troll.

]]> By: Robert Millan http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-644 Robert Millan Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:17:33 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-644 <blockquote> I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out. There are ‘extremists’ in the free software world, but that’s one major reason why I don’t call what I do ‘free software’ any more. I don’t want to be associated with the people for whom it’s about exclusion and hatred. —Linus Torvalds (as quoted in Linux Magazine) </blockquote> In other words: hating Microsoft is sine qua non requisite for advocating free software. In Linus' mind it's not conceiveable that you could care about freedom without hating anyone. The scary thing is that I don't think he's liing. He <b>believes</b> in what he said. Now tell me, who's the extremist?

I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out.
There are ‘extremists’ in the free software world, but that’s one major reason why I don’t call what I do ‘free software’ any more. I don’t want to be associated with the people for whom it’s about exclusion and hatred.
—Linus Torvalds (as quoted in Linux Magazine)

In other words: hating Microsoft is sine qua non requisite for advocating free software. In Linus’ mind it’s not conceiveable that you could care about freedom without hating anyone.

The scary thing is that I don’t think he’s liing. He believes in what he said.

Now tell me, who’s the extremist?

]]> By: Robert Millan http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-643 Robert Millan Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:09:01 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-643 <blockquote cite="#comment-body-544"> <strong><a href="#comment-544" rel="nofollow">Jo Shields</a> :</strong> Finding your app on Launchpad as a result was sufficient for me to upgrade you in my mind from “Forenza” to “Millan” grouping. <a></a> </blockquote> Btw, I really don't approve of this line of thinking. I reject the idea that my opinion is better than someone else's just because I write code for GRUB and a bunch other projects. For one thing, I think Stefano's sense of humour is much better than mine.

Jo Shields :

Finding your app on Launchpad as a result was sufficient for me to upgrade you in my mind from “Forenza” to “Millan” grouping.

Btw, I really don’t approve of this line of thinking. I reject the idea that my opinion is better than someone else’s just because I write code for GRUB and a bunch other projects.

For one thing, I think Stefano’s sense of humour is much better than mine.

]]> By: Robert Millan http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-642 Robert Millan Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:03:58 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-642 <blockquote cite="#comment-body-544"> <strong><a href="#comment-544" rel="nofollow">Jo Shields</a> :</strong> Finding your app on Launchpad as a result was sufficient for me to upgrade you in my mind from “Forenza” to “Millan” grouping. <a></a> </blockquote> LOL

Jo Shields :

Finding your app on Launchpad as a result was sufficient for me to upgrade you in my mind from “Forenza” to “Millan” grouping.

LOL

]]> By: Apollo11CAPCOM http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/23/coming-out-of-the-closet/comment-page-1/#comment-604 Apollo11CAPCOM Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:57:19 +0000 http://mono-nono.com/?p=466#comment-604 I perceive ther is a growing trend out there: Trying to divide the FOSS world between "Open Source" and "Free Software". People on the "just open source" camp focus on the developers and on technical issues, whereas Free Software's focus is THE USER'S RIGHST AND FREEDOMS, which, for many, is inconvenient. Notice the Debian software guidelines state clearly that the focus of the project are THE USERS. The GPL's focus as well is to counter the effects of the traditional proprietary licences (eg. the EULAS) and to give back the rights and freedoms to THE USERS. Notice that, in the Free Software world, the distinction between user and developer (which is so convenient to the traditional business model of the proprietary software companies) does not apply anymore proper, since the *freedoms* to use, modify, study and re-distribute the program is what allows any user to become a developer at any time they want (or can) while at the same time does not preclude any developer to become a user of anyone else's work. It is this sense of ethical sharing-alike what allows to build a community. Free software is about collaboration and inclusiveness, not about competition and exclusiveness. Discrediting the Free Software Foundation, and the people who stands for the values it defends and who values ethics and other's freedoms over technical considerations or money is a growing trend and a way of weakening and dividing the FOSS community, selecting just the "OSS" part and marginalising the ethical and philosophical part (for example appending it everywhere pejorative connotations like "politics","zealotry","fanatism","unpracticality","unpragmatism", etc, etc... Now insert the corporate interest in it and you see there is the risk that they separate and take away the "freedom" part and just allow open source as a cheap way of getting developer and bugfixers manpower, taking away the commons and imposing new barriers of entry to users, in the form of patent royalties, obstacles to become a developer of a project if they happen to be not in the best interest of the corporation sponsoring a part of it, etc... I perceive ther is a growing trend out there:
Trying to divide the FOSS world between “Open Source” and “Free Software”. People on the “just open source” camp focus on the developers and on technical issues, whereas Free Software’s focus is THE USER’S RIGHST AND FREEDOMS, which, for many, is inconvenient.
Notice the Debian software guidelines state clearly that the focus of the project are THE USERS.
The GPL’s focus as well is to counter the effects of the traditional proprietary licences (eg. the EULAS) and to give back the rights and freedoms to THE USERS.
Notice that, in the Free Software world, the distinction between user and developer (which is so convenient to the traditional business model of the proprietary software companies) does not apply anymore proper, since the *freedoms* to use, modify, study and re-distribute the program is what allows any user to become a developer at any time they want (or can) while at the same time does not preclude any developer to become a user of anyone else’s work. It is this sense of ethical sharing-alike what allows to build a community. Free software is about collaboration and inclusiveness, not about competition and exclusiveness.

Discrediting the Free Software Foundation, and the people who stands for the values it defends and who values ethics and other’s freedoms over technical considerations or money is a growing trend and a way of weakening and dividing the FOSS community, selecting just the “OSS” part and marginalising the ethical and philosophical part (for example appending it everywhere pejorative connotations like “politics”,”zealotry”,”fanatism”,”unpracticality”,”unpragmatism”, etc, etc…

Now insert the corporate interest in it and you see there is the risk that they separate and take away the “freedom” part and just allow open source as a cheap way of getting developer and bugfixers manpower, taking away the commons and imposing new barriers of entry to users, in the form of patent royalties, obstacles to become a developer of a project if they happen to be not in the best interest of the corporation sponsoring a part of it, etc…

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