Jo Shields posts a blog entry about the “Mono war”.
At first, Mr. Shields outlines several points that he feels marks the “war” as “unproductive” – these points are largely factual observations, which are followed by a strange conclusion:
Nobody is going to change their positions based on angry or smug blogging, nobody is going to drop everything to work on things for kids with entitlement complexes, and nobody is going to give up on their freedom to kick up a fuss.
The first problem
Nobody is going to change their positions based on angry or smug blogging
I call this a strange conclusion because it contains some truth, but only because humans beings rarely change their position on anything, regardless of the amount of evidence in front of them. Once a person has come down on one side of the issue or another, it takes enormous effort to move to the opposing side.
Guess what? I’m not trying to change mono apologists’ position. That’s is so unlikely that it would be insane to make that a driving goal. I’m trying to achieve something entirely different, and much more reasonable:
- Lay out my reasoning on why I think Mono/Moonlight is a net loss to the community.
- Point out the dishonesty of much of mono apologetics.
- Hopefully convince people “on the fence” to avoid Mono/Moonlight.
- Failing that, convince people there is rational opposition to Mono/Moonlight.
It would be unrealistic to think Novell or Miguel de Icaza (or even yourself, Mr. Shields) will change positions on Mono. The amount of money, effort and emotion invested in Mono by those actors would make it something akin to a religious conversion.
The second problem
Nobody is going to drop everything to work on things for kids with entitlement complexes
Kids with entitlement complexes? Putting aside the ad hominem, the main request – crudely stated – by most Mono critics is “stop pushing Mono so damn much”, not “give me something I don’t have”. Is it really an “entitlement complex” when you don’t want something someone is trying to give you?
I have been asking for more truth in mono apologetics, I guess that’s my entitlement complex. If you are going to promote something, I feel entitled to be spoken to honestly. Got me there, I suppose.
The third problem
Nobody is going to give up on their freedom to kick up a fuss
Well good thing no one is asking anyone to give up any freedom! I mean, it’s not like Mono critics are threating excommunication from the community or anything so obnoxiously offensive and irrational, right?
Wonder Twin powers activate
So, combine a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what some Mono critics are even trying to achieve with a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the motives, and top it off with a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the requirements of the request – and you have a “strange conclusion” indeed.
Consider if someone said this:
Nobody is going to change their positions based on corporate PR or paid spokesmen, nobody is going to adopt your technology simply because you think it is so awesome, and nobody is going to give up thier freedom just to use Microsoft technology.
This is exactly as true (and misrepresentative of the Noble Opposition’s Position) as the original “strange conclusion”.
The Suggested Steps
Mr. Shields then proceeds to offer up several steps, some of which are not very interesting (because they are simple truisims like “pick your battles” or “understand people’s motives”), but some of which are quite interesting indeed:
Step 1: Accept that some people feel differently to you
The irony, oh how it burns. The disconnect between the absolute demonization of Mono critics and the call for those same people to “accept that some people feel differently to you” is quite remarkable.
I accept that some people feel differently. I would like to understand why. I’ve said that multiple times. Why pretend that I am doing something I am not?
Step 3: Understand governance
This is very true, in the sense that there are some mono activists that know the system very well and use it to their advantage. This is precisely why we have things like Banshee being proposed as default. The pro-Mono contingent has virtually infinite money, experience and resources compared to Mono critics.
This is an issue that cuts: on one hand, it reminds me of a huge country demanding the local resistance “come out and fight fair”, but on the other there is much truth in it: the best way to change things is from the inside.
Which, incidentally, is part of the reason some people are so darn eager to alienate and excommunicate any critical speech of Mono whatsoever. What better rhetoric to simultaneously insist that one needs to be on the inside to change things while asserting that anyone critical is not even a member of the community!
This is a point well addressed in “Why Mono is a Red Herring” over on the *NIXEDBLOG where he points out that “a blind eye was turned towards those who supported Mono until they started to obtain higher positions of authority in the Ubuntu community”, and that basically people were apathetic to the growing influence of Mono supporters until it was too late.
I’ve made a similar point about Novell in general: the deal with Microsoft today is just as anti-community, offensive, and a betrayal of the spirit of Free Software as it was the day it was inked. But, people tire, and if you have the money and resources you can just out-wait most individuals.
Mono supporters just kept thier heads down, made false assurances, and made sure they got in positions to make things happen. Now there is no problem openly suggesting things no Mono proponent would have dared broach just a few years ago.
Step 4: Understand the relative value of contributions
This is pretty much the same things as step 3, including the transparent attempt at the Catch-22: you have to be a contributor to change anything, but if you are critical of Mono, you can’t be a contributor.
Here’s another thing about contributions: a person’s circumstances may mean they can only contribute so much – you don’t know if that one small project represents 10% or 90% of a person’s time/ability/interest. You don’t get to “write off” someone just because they haven’t contributed X lines of code to Y projects, or X quantifiable units to Y different things.
On the Ubuntu Technical Board
Here’s the thing: One should just shut up until he gets into a position on the Ubuntu Technical Board before protesting? Exactly what are the chances for any single individual to get on the TB at all? The are only 4 people on the board, and one of them is Mark Shuttleworth, so there are really only 3 slots.
Isn’t that a bit like saying if you aren’t a Cabinet Secretary, you should just shut your mouth about the country’s problems? THERE ARE ONLY 4 PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ON THE DOGFIDDLING BOARD. How exactly do you think saying that if I don’t attempt to be one of those 4 people, I am not “Doing It Right”? How exactly do you think that is an intellectually honest argument?
And even among those 4 people, Mr. Shields says they ”reached a near-unanimous verdict that Mono is fine”. So basically, you are saying 3 people decided Mono was fine, right?
This sort of rhetoric is so disappointing. I’ve heard this “no Mono critics even tried to get on the Ubuntu Technical Board, they must all be hypocrites” argument from multiple places now. I wish I could say that surprised me; but it just reinforces my belief that not only are Mono apologists dishonest in thier arguments, but they love to parrot one another uncritically. Everytime I start thinking maybe I have misjudged the quality of Mono apologetics someone lays down a turd like this on my dinner plate and asks me to dig in.
In Summary
I don’t think the “Mono war” is unproductive, though I will certainly agree there are some people fighting it in unproductive ways.
Anytime someone squeezes out a discredited pro-Mono argument, anyone who has bothered to read this blog knows that person is ignorant. Anytime someone tries to pretend that every single Mono critic is a frothing-at-mouth irrational zealot, anyone who has bothered to read this blog knows that person is ignorant. And so on. So I’m thinking that I’m meeting my goals and being productive just fine, thankyouverymuch.
It’s easy to make the other side look like a failure if you redefine thier goal, methods and motivations.

#1 by Richard on August 4th, 2009
In fairness, until I stumbled upon your blog, I was unaware that the categories “mono apologist” or “mono critic” even existed. If anything, this entire “debate” reminds me of nothing so much as the C/C++ wars in the 90s, or the RISC/CISC wars before them. I strongly suspect that the end result of this debate will be the same as the end result of those: whilst the pro- and anti- people are talking, others will be quietly getting on with the business of using the technology, and eventually this entire “Mono war” will be seen as the non-issue that it probably is.
aside: ['course, there will always be hold-overs. I met a sysadmin some months ago who swore up and down that C++ was slow and bloated, and that you needed to code everything in C. I almost considered asking him what he thought about Lisp/Haskell performance, but then I wouldn't have been able to resist laughing out loud ...]
The “Mono war” does have some interesting legal peculiarities to it, but (having researched the matter during my conversation with Lex) I’m not too worried about those. Nothing core would be lost if worst came to worst. Not that I think the worst would happen: Microsoft is many things, but it’s not overly stupid, and throwing lawyers at Mono would be pretty stupid — akin to saying “OK, Google wins the platform war with its web platform, and Java can take all the non-Windows developers, and we’ll throw all our eggs into this basket labeled ‘Slowly-Becoming-Irrelevant Win32 API’.”.
In summary, the “Mono war” is probably unproductive, but only because it really is a non-issue. It’s two sides arguing (and using epithets and arguments that only hold true in the echo chamber), when the truth is that the matter will be decided by the guys who are doing the work and not shouting so much. C++ didn’t “kill” C. RISC and CISC are functionally irrelevant terms nowadays. And Mono and Novell and Micro$oft and Linux and Teh Comunitty will probably all settle down to a nice stable equilibrium, and the whole “war” will have not existed at all …
#2 by Jason on August 4th, 2009
A little bit of the “vicious precisely because the stakes are so small”?
Perhaps. But I think the debate encapsulates many of the larger issues in the community:
Trust vs. Distrust Microsoft
Free vs. Open
Pragmatism vs. Idealism
Meritocracy vs. Elitism
Developers vs. Users
I think the Mono debate touches on these areas, and somewhat significantly at that; and the broader issue of the Novell-Microsoft deal was a major factor in the GPLv3, so it will have long-lasting ramifications if only for that alone.
I too, am highly doubtful that the worst will come to pass. In fact, I can hardly imagine Microsoft being more pleased with the exact situation Mono is in right now – there is no down-side to it for them!
That being said, if one takes a narrow and longview it is easy to calm down. In all likelihood Mono will be as irrelevant as Borland’s OWL in 20 years, but I doubt the same will be true for the concept of Free Software or some of the more idealic issues here!
#3 by Richard on August 4th, 2009
Perhaps it does. Shouldn’t the “community” be talking about those things, then, instead of using Mono as the fig-leaf? Not that I consider that to be a much better debate, of course; philosophers have been debating most of these things for thousands of years without arriving at a decent conclusion about them. But I’ve got hope: maybe this year …
.
Being the more pragmatic sort of open-sourcer, I think I’ll leave such community-related discussions to others. Do let me know what you all decide
.
#4 by C.J. Adams-Collier on August 6th, 2009
it is “worse came to worst”, btw, ie “comparative came to superlative”
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/comparative
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/superlative
#5 by Don on August 6th, 2009
> In summary, the “Mono war” is probably unproductive, but only because it really is a non-issue. It’s two sides arguing …, when the truth is that the matter will be decided by the guys who are doing the work and not shouting so much.
It is decided by the market. And whether people like hip hop or techno or march music is not a matter of truth.
> “And Mono and Novell and Micro$oft and Linux and Teh Comunitty will probably all settle down to a nice stable equilibrium, and the whole “war” will have not existed at all …
You forget that is is the symptom of commercial pratice of Gnome proponents, and that they trolled against competitors or the US military themselves.
It is counter-evangelism or a slashback. If you play foul you distort the flow. This irritation field is generated by Microsoft. This irritation field was generated by Novell’s business practice. There are many people who are absolutely passionate and furious. They remember what Novell did to Suse. They know how Gnome community tried to screw people up within the freedesktop project. They know the policy of library infection inside the Gnome project. They remember how Novell took sides within the project.
Or they simply point out that ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Winforms are patent encumbered.
#6 by Richard on August 7th, 2009
I’m sorry, I don’t understand. I don’t mean to be rude in saying so, since I realize that English is not the first language of many web-users. If you can spare the time, could you explain more fully what you mean by “counter-evangelism”, “distort the flow”, “irritation field”, and “library infection”? I get the impression that you are referring to historical or current events, but I’m not familiar with those events. Could you explain them, or post links to other sites that explain them?
As far as I do understand your post, you seem to be saying that many people are grumpy about past events, or they are wary of legalities surrounding non-core components, and therefore an equilibrium is not likely. I have discussed the legalities before, and don’t feel that they have much practical effect on an eventual equilibrium. The short answer to your point about grumpy people is that, in general, such people don’t matter.
My experience is that there are people who talk (such as “community” spokespeople or forumites), and people who do (such as Ulrich Drepper or Con Kolivas), and people who are able to do both (such as Miguel de Icaza). The people you refer to fall strictly within the first category, since the latter categories tend to try and avoid politics and getting hung up on the past. And when the people who talk try to do things, one generally ends up with a disaster such as Portable.Net.
(Am I writing these angry people off? Why yes, I am. As I’ve mentioned before, users are great, and the community is crazy. Why should I care about what crazy people think? If they don’t want to adopt new approaches, that’s their problem. Reminds me of the Irish people today who just fail to understand that it doesn’t matter what happened 100 years ago — let it go, man, let it go…)
#7 by Don on August 8th, 2009
Gnome was accompanied with rude negative evangelism against KDE.
The classical policy of “Ximian” is that they show a proof of concept, inspire the community, and then walk away. Library infection is the way to guarantee that others have to fix your immature software because they depend on it. Gnome is a dependency hell.
Novell bought Ximian, put their management in charge and then bought the KDE reference distribution SuSe and standardised it on Gnome regardless of what the customers wanted. Also think of the RedCarpet debacle.
When you play “evil” or simply “against the rules” of community conduct people will freak and prepare their knives. Intercultural problems are at the core of so many conflict lines. The “flow” is acceptable behaviour. If you distort it and manipulate people, there will be a slashback for you, a slashback that may even appear absolutely unreasonable.
As of Mono it was clear to us that we have to take care of the patents but Novell denied the problem. Suse always supported the fight against software patenting. What we need is to come up with are strategies to follow Ulyx when you cross the sirens. We need a rope and wax. No, the GPLv3 is not the solution. Maybe we need more of this http://www.patentcommons.org/
We need these committments to protect the developer community.
#8 by Richard on August 10th, 2009
?? What does this have to do with anything ?? Even if true, who cares in 2009?
…and that seems like a perfectly sensible and normal approach to me. Have you seen Google Wave, or Facebook, or Enlightenment, or libpng? Exposing a developmental block of reusable functionality, inspiring people to use it, accepting fixes and making changes, and letting people generally do what they want with it is a good thing.
…”library infection”?? Did you not know that this is how open-source works? You develop something, and then you release it, and then Joe from Nebraska emails you to say “Hey it doesn’t process this file correctly”, and you ask Joe if he could supply a patch ‘cos you’re busy, and he does, and everyone benefits. And what does “Gnome is a dependency hell” have to do with anything? Even if it was true (which I have many doubts about), what bearing does that have on anything we’re discussing?
Are you a customer of theirs? If so, why didn’t you switch if you felt so strongly? If not, why do you care? What is the “RedCarpet debacle”?
Yes, I agree with you, but I really fail to see the relevance of this point. What, exactly, has Novell done? Signed a few deals with Microsoft? Settled on a desktop system that you don’t like? Pimped a framework that you don’t like? In all cases — so what? Don’t go on about it, just switch to another distro. Simple solution.
Back it up a few steps. “clear to us“? “we have to take care of”? Who is this “we”? And this “us”?
As a member of “the developer community”, I have a request: please stop trying to “protect” us. We’re fully potty-trained, and we can speak for ourselves. Most of the “issues” that you have raised have precisely nothing to do with anything under discussion. You strike me as a person who is stuck in the past. Please, please, don’t put yourself forward as though you represent the average developer in the “developer community” that you are so intent on protecting.
#9 by Dan Serban on August 4th, 2009
Interesting quote from the *NIXEDBLOG:
F-Spot is definitely a luxury item. F-Spot is also an application that implements the old paradigm of having everything happen in isolation within the confines of the desktop.
Today’s paradigm however is to have everything happen in the cloud and in a socially networked fashion.
Although I remember seeing a Brainstorm idea requesting that F-Spot sync its tag database into the cloud, Google has quietly been working on a much better idea: socially enabled group photo albums in the cloud.
Have you watched the video “Google Wave Developer Preview at Google I/O 2009″ ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_UyVmITiYQ
Somwehere towards the middle Lars and Stephanie do a demo of this feature, leaving the public in complete disbelief and ecstasy.
F-Spot, take note, you are about to become obsolete bloatware.
#10 by Jo Shields on August 4th, 2009
Wow, Jas. Way to miss the point. As in “it took off and landed on a different continent to you” missed it. Not everything is about you, you know?
1
There’s a difference between feeling a different way, and being a prick about it.
“you sound like a typical M$ appologist. do you sleep well at night? hope they are paying you well.” is being a prick about it. Is that up for debate here?
3
I’d love infinite money. Where can I get me some of that? Hey, what do you reckon the diamond-encrusted throne is worth?
Actually, my point on this was not what you imagine – my point here was “stop thinking that Ubuntu forums, brainstorm, or personal emails to Mark Shuttleworth are how change can be elicited, because they’re not; there’s a bureaucracy that we all need to go through, and that even means you guys”
If people actually want to change the status quo, I’ve detailed how. Apparently that’s not of any value?
4
Sorry, you’ve imagined this one. There’s absolutely nothing preventing Mono critics from being contributors. At any level. That was kinda the point. There are Debian Developers who are highly critical of Mono, fr’example. Or less highly, but concerned, and so on. And there’s plenty of space out there for people to contribute – it’s not a binary choice.
The point, Jason, is contributions have different area of effect, and the chosen method of contribution used by the vast majority of anti-Mono folks has an area of ~0. This isn’t part of a conspiracy, it’s simply the nature of contribution. Packagers will package no matter what – but more senior people (with more far-reaching contributions) on one distro may pick a Mono package for whatever reason, and their peers on another distro pick another package for whatever reason, and regardless of who they are or what the decision is, their contribution is more far-reaching because their body of work has put them in that position. Fedora’s brass are notoriously anti-Mono (and unashamedly happy to keep it as a “second-class citizen”), does that mean they “can’t contribute” in some way? Of course not. Anyone can contribute.
The board
I never said that. I said your protests would be fruitless. If you want something done right, you need to do it yourself.
I expect higher quality fact-checking from you, Jason. The Ubuntu Technical Board intends to grow its membership from the current four seats to six. All but one of these seats (the recently elected Colin Watson) will be up for election for a period of two years.
All Ubuntu developers are eligible to vote.
This (~ubuntu-dev) team has: 135 active members
Which includes me, I suppose, since all MOTUs count. Becoming a MOTU isn’t hard – all it takes is contributing in tangible ways (see above). No, I have no interest in being on the technical board – I enjoy packaging, not politics.
Excluded point: 2
The fact that you decided not to bother quoting step 2 is interesting, because to an extent it’s the most important one for people to read. It’s a counter to
and a counter to
and a counter to
Amongst others.
As long as people have false assumptions about the motivating factors of Free Software development, then they’ll be completely unable to engage with the people doing that development – even if “engage” means “disagree”. I’m on reasonable terms with Robert Millan now I think we understand each other properly, fr’example.
Excluded point: 5
“I’m trying to rally support. That is all. The specific thing I’m trying to rally support for, is expulsion of Mono from /all/ distros, not just Ubuntu.”
Some people need it spelled out. Picking battles isn’t as obvious as you think.
Excluded point: 6
I think we already covered much of this with the initial CLR announcement – but I felt it was necessary to tie it in to my previous points. To an extent this shows my simple inability to process a “heckler-only” position in my mind – the ONE difference we have between Free software and proprietary software is that when we don’t like something, ANYTHING, then we can change it – we aren’t restricted to heckling. If the anti-Mono folks have enough disdain for the governance procedures in place within Ubuntu or Debian or whatever, then why not do something about it rather than complaining? A tangible result of some kind? Some clever soul at BN already made “Bloatnux” with every Mono-related package for openSUSE they were able to identify, using Novell’s new builder service thing that I’ve forgotten the name of. Perhaps instead of smarmy actions like that, they could do something productive?
Why is suggesting productive behaviour taken as abhorrent by so many?
#11 by Jason on August 4th, 2009
1. The mailing list thing is prickish, but what seems odd though is to offer up suggestions to one side that the other side isn’t doing.
3. Virtually infinite compared to Mono critics. I think this is a fair statement.
4. Perhaps. I’m not convinced how welcome any specific Mono-critical project would be received.
The board. My god man, so I missed the fact that board is increasing from 4 to 6 members? Wow. So what – is there really a material difference between 4 members or 6? The point stands, there are a vanishingly small number of seats on the Technical Board, so it is hardly honest to use it as some sort of measuring stick.
2. I didn’t mention this point because I agree with it. I don’t agree that it is a counter to the things that you think it counters, but I agree with the text of the point as I understand it.
5. Fair enough. I hope I have made it clear that I have what I think are more realistic goals.
6. I agree with the point, but I disagree with the underlying premise that simply talking about things is not productive or constructive.
#12 by Jo Shields on August 4th, 2009
Well, that’s the point, isn’t it.
I don’t think it’s even remotely fair.
Experience? Perhaps. But money? Nobody, not a single person, is paid to work on Mono in Debian/Ubuntu. Bringing that bogus argument into it is an attempt to paint a corp-versus-grassroots image which is patently false.
That depends on what and by whom.
If, say, every Mono critic learnt enough Python to make Listen or Exaile the most awesome media player since sliced Foobar, then you can bet good money that any and all plans relating to Banshee by default in Ubuntu would be dropped (and if Listen really did become better, I’d support such a move… Exaile not so much since the Amarok GUI sucks). That would be a productive, positive endeavour with tangible results and an anti-Mono outcome. Ditto for F-Spot versus, well, any GTK+ replacement with an import feature.
It’s not a measuring stick – it’s just the way the governance works. The board as-is made a decision – one they’re prepared to override if a genuine need arises by the way – and to unilaterally change it requires a new vote with a new result. If you don’t think being on the board would help with that, then… well I don’t really know how to reply there.
The board have said Mono is okay (A decision I had no part in before the conspiracies arrive from third parties). That leaves two options to banish Mono from the default – politics (changing the board’s decision, which is extremely unlikely without joining the board or some sudden move by Microsoft to cause them to reject Mono) or organically (improving competing apps to obsolete the Mono apps). That’s all there is to it. Since you seem to be dismissing the board idea, that leaves the other option.
Would you agree that echo chambers like BN or COLA do nobody no good?
#13 by Jason on August 5th, 2009
I think there is a level of corporate backing and support that Mono receives in general that Mono critics do not enjoy. Whether that money is spent directly on individuals in a specific project, or just on Mono in general is not the issue.
There is very much a “corp-versus-grassroots” image here. It’s not a simple dilemma – few things are – but it is not accurate to think that Mono as a project does not enjoy a level of sponsorship and promotion that is not present for the critical side.
I don’t think media players are a good example. Banshee is already an inferior choice to Rhythmbox, looks to be on a path to be an even worse choice, and many of the reasons used to promote Banshee are factually incorrect. I simply do not believe any talk at all about “best-of-breed” in application choice, especially around the media player space.
By my lights, the Banshee/Rhythmbox issue is a bright and shining example of why I have a very hard time agreeing that even the most tangible of contributions matter – or that there is any objective consideration at all applied when it comes to anything Mono related.
I am not dismissing the idea, nor do I think being on the board wouldn’t help. I am pointing out how intellectually dishonest it is to portray Mono critics as hypocritical or intentionally ineffective because they aren’t working on getting on the Technical Board.
That is only one step removed from saying “well, just form your own distribution” It is unrealistic for the vast majority of people, simply because there are a very very very small number of slots, even for the most motivated, qualified and “inside” people.
There are more billionare musicians that members of the Ubuntu Technical Board. There are more living Nobel Peace Prize laureates than members of the Ubuntu Technical Board. That is the point, not that joining the Technical Board would be pointless or ineffective. Forming a new distribution as popular as Ubuntu would also be quite effective – and nearly as difficult. It is not dishonest to say that joining the board would put one in the position to change. It is dishonest to hint or state outright that if Mono critics were really interested in doing something then they would be on the Ubuntu Technical board.
I’m not sure exactly how to make that much more clear. It is a bogus argument, wielded to portray critics as ineffective hypocrites. Your use was not as egregious as another I have seen, but I feel it is in the same vein.
I think I’ve said many times one of the main reasons I started this blog was because I wanted to do things a different way. Of course I’m constantly being told that even how I am doing things is “unproductive”, “useless”, not a “contribution”, “Doing It Wrong” and so forth. I have been directly painted with the BN brush by more than one person, even though that is plainly 110% dishonest.
It’s also ironic that even the greatest contributors in the community come under withering fire for criticizing Mono in ways far more tame than I employ.
One might begin to think no level or manner of criticism is acceptable. This is why suggesting that Mono critics need to contribute in a specific way ring hollow.
If you can take a moment and try to put these points together, perhaps you can see that what you are calling “suggesting productive behaviour” is being perceived as something like “do something I approve of, in a manner I approve of, without speech I disapprove of, and then we will judge your efforts against some incredibly high standard, and determine your value. If your value is high enough, then you may critize Mono in some approved way”.
#14 by Richard on August 5th, 2009
Sorry to jump into the middle of this conversation, but …
… what’s wrong with this, exactly? Remove the phrase “incredibly high”, replace “Mono” with “anything”, and you’ve got the structure of any number of reasonably successful organizations and teams (e.g. the linux kernel group, or Google, or the Boy Scouts, or the Debian team, etc).
(yes yes, we’d all like it to be different, but it’s not.) I’ve learned this much: if you want to change things, either learn how to play the game or make your own team.
#15 by Jason on August 5th, 2009
Richard,
I had a long, detailed post hashing arguments you probably already heard, but let me try a different approach here:
You mention the Boy Scouts.
The Boy Scouts do not allow homosexuals or atheists. Should homosexuals and atheists hold their criticism of the Boy Scouts? Should they attempt to get on the board of directors? Or just “shut up and form their own organization”?
The Boy Scouts have an infrastructure that few other similar organizations have.
The Boy Scouts receive aid and support that few other similar organizations recieve.
The Boy Scouts can often provide increased opportunities throughout a member’s life.
The Boy Scouts enjoy a popular acceptance and approval that few other similar organizations do.
Should homosexual and athiests that want to make a change in the Boy Scouts try to raise awareness of the issues? To get people talking about things? To try to get people to see their side of things?
I don’t want to get all righteous up here in the Temple, because obviously discrimination on sexual preference or (non) religious grounds is about 8000 orders of magnitude more important than keeping Gnome Do out of Karmic+2, but you made the comparison and I hope you will accept there is some similarity here.
#16 by Richard on August 5th, 2009
I’m sort of glad that you picked the Boy Scouts
. Discussing non-technical organizations is more interesting…
No.
Yes.
Yes. (The two approaches are certainly not mutually exclusive).
By all means — free speech, right? Should they expect the Boy Scouts to give two hoots? No.
The situation seems quite simple to me.
#17 by Jason on August 5th, 2009
Quite so – the Boy Scouts will not give two hoots unless the excluded groups can raise enough sympathy, internal and external, to get the organization to reconsider its position.
(I disagree about forming their own organization. I can certainly see the argument – it’s just not how I would do things.)
That’s probably about as far as we can strain the analogy, but obviously I prefer to see my efforts as closer to this situation rather than some intentionally spiteful destruction of the community.
#18 by Richard on August 5th, 2009
Ah, but you’re missing a critical difference. Such groups only raise sympathy and awareness to increase their chances of changing the law. The raising of sympathy and awareness necessarily involves portraying the Boy Scouts as wrong-headed (or misguided, at best), and thus causes the Boy Scouts to not like the groups. In such a situation, most members of the organization (see: Catholic Church, IDF, Boy Scouts, Linux kernel devs, etc) will tend to rally around the flag and become more rejectionist of the policies that the group puts forward.
Whenever you hear or see a $DISTRO dev/maintainer saying “Well if you don’t like what we’re packaging, just go to $OTHERDISTRO”, what you should understand by this is that they see little technical benefit or feature benefit or user benefit that is obtained via the requested change. Importantly, this will not change unless a new dev/maintainer exists, and/or unless organizational culture (which is not equivalent to “the community”) is changed to regard the change reason as valid. You can have 100% user support for your idea (e.g. “faster OS via custom compilation of all packages” — who doesn’t want a faster OS?), and still have it summarily turned down (and be told “Go to Gentoo/ArchLinux”). User support influences, but does not magically alter situations.
I appreciate this, because a pure intention matters. However, whether you see your efforts as closer to one pole than the other, it might be the case that the effects of those efforts are politically counterproductive in any case. Just something to think over …
#19 by Jason on August 6th, 2009
@Richard
That is a very good analysis, especially the “rally around the flag” point. I have to think more on this.
#20 by C.J. Adams-Collier on August 6th, 2009
I don’t know about that. I have requested to have my build machines funded to no avail. BN seems to be receiving quite a bit of money from advertisements for Microsoft operating systems and Office products…
Sounds to me like BN is the corporate shill in this scenario.
#21 by C.J. Adams-Collier on August 7th, 2009
Wow. I guess I bothered someone by questioning their motives. I should probably stop that.
#22 by C.J. Adams-Collier on August 6th, 2009
If you’re talking about RMS (and I assume you are), I don’t think I’ve seen much in the way “coming under withering fire” for his critique of C♯/Mono. Perhaps you are confusing concern with his remarks regarding virgins with something else.
As you know, I wrote him about it, and he was very helpful in pointing me to what I can do to fix the root problem. I’ve invited folks who share the same concern as yourself, Jo and myself regarding software patents to put some effort into addressing our issues. Not a lot of feedback, though. This makes me feel that maybe the anti-mono crowd is really just interested in getting publicity and not in working on the issues they claim to care about.
#23 by Jason on August 6th, 2009
Nope, no confusion. There was a wave of attacks after his first statement on C#, mainly focused on such weighty matters as how he uses mail to browse, his personal grooming habits, or what an irrational zealot he was – real technical stuff. There were long threads on forums, blog entries filled with profanities, and so on. All before the overshadowing second round of attacks (the “sexist” ones) that shortly followed.
On the point of addressing issues: I 100% agree that we need positive efforts there, but – to be brutally frank – I only expect ridicule and dismissal for my efforts. This is one of the most disgusting and vile aspects of certain people – you are told you do not contribute, and when you do and show your work, you are told it doesn’t measure up. You are in being told in effect that you can not contribute; it is an especially hateful form of “moving the goalposts”. So, while I understand and agree with you, I can certainly see why not everyone would want to step out there.
#24 by tacone on August 4th, 2009
I’m not even reading Jo’s new post. He proved to be biased or in bad faith most of the times he posted or did anything.
I’m frankly pretty sick of what he does, he’s not the Mono kind of guy I’d like to discuss with.
As for me, I’ll keep posting about Mono when I feel is needed. (but don’t expect that before september
)
#25 by Jo Shields on August 4th, 2009
That’s the spirit!
#26 by zekopeko on August 4th, 2009
Hahahaha!!! You sure can make people laugh. Now go along to BN. I’m sure they are a type of “Mono people” you can discuss Mono with in a constructive and sane way.
#27 by Richard on August 4th, 2009
@Jason: see, this guy is why I tend to avoid “community” discussions. I’d rather spend my time doing something useful. Want to talk about features? Sure. Want to contribute something? I’m 100% with you. Want to negotiate license terms? Boring, but fine. Want to ask me about where I “feel” the “community” is going? Shove off.
It turns out that users are cool (my users are cool, anyway), but the “community” is a pack of nutjobs. And people who speak for the “community” are vying with each other to be nutjob-in-chief.
I found this bit to be particularly amusing:
When the Free World is in Danger and you’re Needed, we’ll call on you, Voltron.
#28 by Thomas Holbrook II on August 5th, 2009
@Richard: Don’t get me wrong. There are legitimate concerns over Mono. Unlike the C++/C wars, there is the legality issue, which just goes to show why patenting software should have never been allowed in the first place. The best way to settle the whole thing once and for all is to invalidate all software patents and put it back into the copyright realm where it belongs. Until then, the best answer to all of this is to come up with applications/tools that are better and to put as much support behind them as possible.
#29 by Richard on August 5th, 2009
I’m with you on the software patents thing, and feel much the same way about IP in general — including copyright. But I disagree with you on the solution.
IP is only threatening if it is fundamental to the technology, and if it is likely to be enforced. From everything that I’ve seen, I doubt that either of those holds true. So why reinvent the .Net wheel, thus losing or reducing the cross-platform nature of the framework? I realize that this might not carry much weight with some, but I really enjoy the cross-platform nature of .Net. And I don’t care whether my users are using my software on Windows, Linux, or a Mac — I don’t develop software to force my OS choice down their throats.
(have you seen the size and scope of the .Net libraries? I’m not opting to reimplement anything unless court papers are filed. Actually, I’m not opting to reimplement anything then, either — I’ll probably just jump ship to Java or something …)
I also fail to see why people are picking on Mono as the Great IP Threat of the Century. Let’s face it, there are plenty of IP-dubious things on our computers (do you watch/encode movies using w32codecs or Real codecs or such? Or encode/decode MP3s? Or use open-source drivers that might accidentally-or-intentionally subvert DRM in any hardware? Or run the hinting-engine-enabled version of FreeType? Or run sshd without handing keys over to the government?). One more IP-dubious thing won’t hurt, and Apple is much, much more likely to sue you for running hinting-engine-enabled FreeType than Microsoft is to sue you for using Mono!
#30 by Dan Serban on August 5th, 2009
This point has been raised before on this blog. The codecs you mention aren’t in the default install set. They are also not a contributing factor to any company’s platform monopoly remaining entrenched.
#31 by Don on August 8th, 2009
Look, as I wrote above the question is how to defend our platform, and here some tools like patent indemnification declarations are helpful. It is also helpful to lobby policy makers on open standards.
Here we know that Microsoft defends their own definition of openness which includes patents on rand terms and they heavily invest in that kind of lobbying, apparently the feel is that obstruction of interoperability is critical for their platform.
Many companies say they had patents for sole defensive purposes. If so, they should sign an agreement that allows them to enforce their patents only in a defensive manner.
I am sceptical of OIN but it may be the NATO solution. In terms of risks the cheapest investments are interoperability and patent reform lobbying. And then we need a lot of defense alliances all parties are asked to sign when they contribute to free software.
#32 by C.J. Adams-Collier on August 6th, 2009
great. Show me the money. What are you going to do about it?
http://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=447
#33 by C.J. Adams-Collier on August 6th, 2009
So your goal is not to remove, replace or otherwise make obsolete the need for a C# compiler or associated runtime? Is your goal really to convince folks that they should not use the tools available to them?
#34 by Jason on August 6th, 2009
@ C.J.
There are some assumptions behind these questions that I don’t agree with.
For example, I am not convinced there is a “need” for a C# compiler or associated runtime – certainly not a greater need than say a true alternative, unencumbered of the politics and controversy that are part and parcel of Mono/Moonlight or improvement to existing tools. The assumption that Mono/Moonlight is a necessary or superior development environment to any other currently existing in the Free Software world is one I do not accept. In the Free Software world there are like, what, a half-dozen major Mono projects and maybe two dozen non-trivial Mono projects? I’m not sure how much of a “need” that demonstrates.
Secondly, I do not think Mono/Moonlight are simply “tools” available for use. Regardless of how anyone might like it, there are political and idealistic elements that are attached to Mono/Moonlight. To portray them as simply tools is to not acknowledge the reality of the situation. If there were no such elements, then there would hardly be the same level of concern around Mono.
Furthermore, as I have written about before, I believe that Mono/Moonlight currently represent a net loss to the community. If folks promote Mono/Moonlight then, I see that as increasing the loss. So, yes, I would like to discourage that.
I’ve said this time and time again: the Novell deal today is just as offensive and anti-community as it was the day it was signed. Any efforts that are produced then, from that deal or any Novell-Microsoft collaboration, are subject to extraordinary scrutiny. It doesn’t lessen after one day, one week, or one year.
#35 by Anirudh on August 6th, 2009
Hi Jason,
http://code.google.com/hosting/search?q=Mono&btn=Search+projects
http://sourceforge.net/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=mono
(I could go on, but risk triggering the spam filter. Moreover – these are the ones that reference “mono” and not “C#”.
Nobody’s saying that Mono is “better”. There is the concept of using the right tool for the right job. Perl, shell scripts, php, etc all have their place. Python was designed to hit the sweet spot – and to a large extent it did. But many people including myself found maintaining a large application with python difficult.
I’m not saying that C# is better, I’m saying that it serves the purpose which it was designed to serve. Please fight the good fight and prove that these things cause a loss to the community, I have no qualms with that. But do not try to make it out to be technically inferior, because it’s not.
Find a stack that comes with comparable interoperability, ease of development, maintainability, debugability, documentation, extensibility, safety, a decent standard library, performance, and decent bindings to the desktop environment(hint-not java), and then claim that there is no absolute “need” for these tools.
#36 by Jason on August 6th, 2009
Hi!
You know how that list from SourceForce has 474 results?
If you search on “mono AND C#” and filter out those projects that have NO files whatsoever, you are left with 113 results. The vast majority of which are simply C# projects that say they will run under Mono – often speculatively.
Similar thing with the Google Code. 658 results? Wow. Python yields 5107. Java gives 5065.
Granted, I shouldn’t have used the phrase “non-trivial”, though. How about “high profile”?
Anyway, I never said Mono was “technically inferior”, just that I don’t accept that it is some superior tool.
Here’s why:
It has been one of the most well-known development platforms virtually from the day it was announced. It enjoys strong corporate support and a highly enthusiastic community. The “real” platform enjoys enormous promotion from Microsoft – I remember when .NET first came out. People were straight up told if you want to develop on Windows, get on board, because they were literally betting the company on .NET. There was a massive campaign to get people on .NET.
About 8 years later, there are 2 mono apps (soon to be 3, I suppose) in Ubuntu, less in most other distros. Java is still roughly 4 times as popular as C#, despite Herculean efforts by Microsoft to push .NET as the one true platform for Windows development.
That is not the mark of an overwhelmingly superior development platform.
That is all I am saying. I’m not saying C# is total crap or every feature is broken or anything like that. In fact, I’m sure there are some nice things in there. I’m just saying that – putting all politics aside – I consider it at best just another development platform.
And, because of that it is not worth the tradeoffs it comes with. This is a point I made in the “Things that would change my mind” post, right? If Mono was supercharged pure-T awesome sauce, then I could see an argument from necessity of sorts.
I simply don’t think the benefits of Mono are that great. If they were, the adoption would be much higher, and the promotion would be much cleaner.
This is why I always say I think Mono/Moonlight represent a net loss to the community. I don’t think they are worthless, just that the benefits do not outweigh the costs.
#37 by Anirudh on August 6th, 2009
Hmm, you seem to be right – numbers don’t lie after all.
I went to my local LUG meeting a few months back and told them that I liked writing code on Mono. I got the usual patent warnings and they dismissed it as nonsense as it had it’s origins in MS. I insisted and gave a few short demos of the standard libraries and the IDE and people were visibly impressed. Quite a few people including some long time lisp-ers decided to try it out firsthand and were quite happy about it.
I just feel sad that so many people consider it a net loss to the community because it’s actually a pretty nice stack to work with. Time will tell.
#38 by Richard on August 7th, 2009
No, not really. The numbers don’t tell you much about a language. The numbers can easily be held back by stupid misconceptions — an excellent case-in-point is Haskell, which is a fantastic language with really good performance characteristics, but because it’s a pure functional language people say it’s “difficult” and even “slow”. The same goes for OCaml, which is less pure, but (IMO) just as beautiful in many respects. For many, many years Lisp was held back by such silliness as well (”oh its fine for academic types, but in MY line of work…”). JavaScript got its start as a “web” language, and people still regard it as an object-oriented toy instead of a prototypical, functional language. Even C++, one of the most popular languages of yesteryear (and still a popular pick today), was subject to ridicule! Whereas Ruby, which had awful performance characteristics under the default runtime, became the Bling of the programming cognoscenti…
Basically, the numbers and how “good” a language are have very little to do with each other. The only way to tell is to get into it and give it a good try. If you work at it, you can get a very decent feel for a language in 3-4 weeks; that’s how long it’ll take you to understand, and not simply duplicate, some of the common idioms.
This doesn’t really touch on whether we “need” .Net — the answer to that is “No” — but it does touch on a reason to create things in C#/F#/IronPython: they are intrinsically beautiful languages. It would be a shame to discard them for an entire platform or distribution simply because of a potential threat that is unlikely to be actualized. What is the benefit of additional beauty worth to you?
#39 by souskel on August 6th, 2009
These kinds of arguments don’t help your cause. The bottom line is that FOSS is a meritocracy. If you really don’t want Banshee to be adopted as the default music player in Ubuntu, then start submitting patches to improve Rhythmbox.
“Mono supporters just kept thier heads down… and made sure they got in positions to make things happen.”
Yes, they contributed to and wrote software that people want to use. That’s exactly how individuals can influence distro decisions on software and it’s what you should be doing if you really care about this issue.
“You don’t get to write off someone just because they haven’t contributed X lines of code to Y projects, or X quantifiable units to Y different things.”
You are missing the point. Contributing isn’t about whether or not you are entitled to have your opinions respected and given weight. The whole point is that code speaks louder than opinions. If you contribute in a way that promotes your viewpoint, then you are going to be able to fulfill your agenda. You have to help make software that is better than Mono software. That is the only way to get Mono eliminated from Ubuntu’s default installation.
“I think there is a level of corporate backing and support that Mono receives in general that Mono critics do not enjoy.”
Google spends a lot of money to improve Python. Sun spends a lot of money to improve Java. Both of those languages have GTK+ bindings. You can take advantage of those investments and build good software.
#40 by Jason on August 6th, 2009
I’m sorry. This is simply not true – or rather, I do not believe it is true. Gnote will never ever get in there, no matter how much faster and lighter it is. Banshee is almost a certainty to get in, despite the fact that it grows ever more bloated, the majority of users don’t want it, and Rhythmbox is superior in a number of different areas. If it were not so, people would not have to resort to lies or distortions to promote Banshee.
The “best-of-breed” argument holds little weight with me, because I see how it is abused. I agree that is how it should be, but I disagree that is how it is.
Finally, I will say for the 100th time I agree that contributions are good. Every time someone puts this argument out, there is the underlying assumption that people that are critical of Mono are not contributors. This is not accurate.
#41 by zekopeko on August 6th, 2009
Jason you are missing a part of the argument for RB removal and Banshee’s inclusion (the same applies to gnote). I have tried to address this in another comment but I will repeat it again so that it sinks in.
RB is losing the developers and new features are being implemented by way of GSoC. Banshee on the other hand has a vibrant community and is being developed at a fast pace. Not to mention that other applications are being developed on top (PDFmod and hopefully parts of F-spot) of it which just proves that the underlaying tech is robust. Looking from Ubuntu’s viewpoint Banshee is a better long term investment even if it’s lacking in some areas (as of now) from a subjective PoV.
And have you seen some of the crazy shit they are doing for it? Library sharing and streaming with your contacts. Freaking sweeeet!!! And Cubano frontend for netbooks? I would hardly call that bloatware. Not to mention that Banshee’s startup time has only gone down since they introduced the 1.x series while getting more features.
Now take into account that the next Ubuntu version is going to be LTS. One would assume that Ubuntu doesn’t want to support an application that is basically in maintenance mode (slow death) now ,for the next 3 years.
Empathy is also being pushed hard to enter Ubuntu as default. Not because Pidgin is lacking as IM client but because it’s a better long term investment that is going to payoff by the time of the next LTS.
Now look at gnote. There is already one application that uses mono (F-spot) besides Tomboy. Adding gnote brings nothing of value to Ubuntu and is only costing it more disk space. If gnote had a similar community as Tomboy and other applications were using libraries that could be shared between them then gnote would be a contender. As of now it has no great benefit except startup time (and Tomboy is being improved in this regard). Best-of-breed isn’t so clear cut as you try to portray it by using only user noticeable effects .
#42 by Jason on August 6th, 2009
Zekopeko,
How exactly is “RB losing the developers”? Cite numbers and evidence. The entire thing going around about “development has stopped on Rhythmbox” is at best a gross misrepresentation of a statement that the developer has long since clarified.
Rhythmbox is not “in maintenance mode (slow death)”. There are weekly reports on the development list of bugfixes, polishing, new features, and plugins being added. The entire idea that Rhythmbox is dead, dying, out of active development, or anything similar is factually incorrect.
This has gone beyond the point of honest ignorance and is beginning to look like active malice in an attempt to portray Rhythmbox as a dead project in order to boost Banshee.
When misinformation is used to promote Banshee – Rhythmbox is “dead”, space “savings”, Rhythmbox can not scale – it makes it very hard to accept any arguments for Banshee.
It also redoubles my conviction not to “just shut up and code”, because people are out there spreading / believing misinformation.
I have some issues with the rest of your points, but I do not want to distract: Rhythmbox is not dead or dying. Stop saying that. Stop spreading misinformation.
#43 by zekopeko on August 7th, 2009
You are right. On re-reading what I wrote last night/morning I have to agree that *slow death* thingy was over board.
But RB has a problem with it’s underpinnings[1]. As such it has a great deal of chance being a “evolutionary dead end”. Changing the core part of the code base certainly is possible but for an application written in C, I doubt that it’s going to be a fun thing to do (at least while looking at Evolution developers and their quest to fix the under-the-hood problems).
Also compare the number of developers on both projects:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=rhythmbox
vs.
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=banshee
Do you think that RB has enough developer resources to fix those problems?
Banshee has the potential (that is being realized) to become a great cross platform application/dev framework.
In the long term interest of Ubuntu what do you believe is a better solution? Note that I don’t have a problem with RB remaining in Ubuntu if the Desktop Team finds it better for their vision of the distribution, since in the end I have no control on what is going to be in Ubuntu or any other distribution.
[1] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/rhythmbox-devel/2009-February/msg00029.html
#44 by Jason on August 7th, 2009
@Zekopeko,
Yes, of course, if they decide what needs to be done and decide to do it! Every project has underpinning problems, because no design is perfect and it’s always possible to look back in hindsight and say “Damn. I should have modeled/implemented/designed this thing in this other way!” That’s one of the reasons Open Source projects tend to do complete re-writes on alternate Tuesdays!
In the long term interest of Ubuntu I do not think that a “great cross platform application/dev framework” built on top of another “great cross platform application/dev framework” is a better solution. Instead, I think it is a perfect example of Zawinski’s Law, which states that “all truly useful programs experience pressure to evolve into toolkits and application platforms “.
I think we are seeing that in Banshee, which is one of many reasons I do not think it is a good choice for a default desktop audio player.
Here, let me stick this in this blog entry from Coding Horror, “Why does software spoil?” It’s quite similar to my thinking that “more features” does not mean “better”, and more often than not means “bad”.
#45 by zekopeko on August 7th, 2009
Banshee is at it’s third rewrite now (AFAIK from abock’s post). Who is in a better position code wise, RB or Banshee?
I don’t get it. Is offering developers a reusable code piece somehow bad? Or should they always reinvent the wheel? Banshee was designed in such a way as to be extensible and reusable. The epitome of FLOSS’s strength.
Reading that blog entry I noticed that it talks about revenue streams and features as selling points for commercial software. I don’t see that applying to FLOSS since people tend to code it to scratch-an-itch and create something that they like using them selfs. Also notice that most of Banshee’s functionality is done trough extensions. I mean the entire GUI is some 875 lines of code. There are already at least 3 front ends to Banshee.
You also mention Banshee as an audio player which is just one of it’s functionality. It’s called Banshee Media Player after all. I for one would like a central place to manage my media in a sane way.
#46 by makomk on August 7th, 2009
Oh, no doubt Banshee is being developed at a fast pace – from what I can tell, Novell is basically employing and paying people to develop it. Despite both that and the length of time it’s been in development, fundamental features like automatic library updates when a file on disk changes are still MIA.
I think the only major advantages it has feature-wise over Rhythmbox are a slightly more polished-looking UI and better support for syncing devices -and Rhythmbox is fixing the latter. (Oh, and video support, but that’s not really that useful in a library-based music player.) Rhythmbox, on the other hand, has the advantage of an entire ecosystem of software that works with it, and some through real-life testing.
#47 by zekopeko on August 7th, 2009
Why do people have a problem when a company is paying somebody to develop Banshee/any-mono-app and don’t have a problem with companies paying developers to work on the kernel or any other piece of FLOSS software?
Auto-indexing is being developed and there are almost finished patches in bugzilla.
Your video library argument fails since people tend to have Music Videos in their collections. Let’s not mention Amarok 2 support for playing videos and RB’s experimental YouTube support (also available on Banshee AFAIK).
Rhythmbox, on the other hand, has the advantage of an entire ecosystem of software that works with it, and some through real-life testing.
Mmmmm…. Banshee also has an “advantage of an entire ecosystem of software that works with it, and some through real-life testing”. Gnome-Do supports it quite nicely. Remuco also. Does are real-life tests.
#48 by makomk on August 7th, 2009
There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with companies paying people to develop Open Source software, but it’s not the same thing as having an actual community of developers. It’s also not a sign that people are enthusiastic to program in the language in question – the programming languages corporations use is driven by things very much unrelated to the actual technical merits.
“Auto-indexing is being developed and there are almost finished patches in bugzilla.”
I notice the feature request in question was filed in December 2006. Only two-and-a-half years and counting for it to be fixed – and this is a feature that’s kinda expected of library-based music players on Linux these days. Plus, they only actually started working on it again a few months ago, and that because it looked like Banshee might be going into Ubuntu and the users would be pissed off. (It’s not even that complicated – take a look at the patches. They’re not handling anything fancy like modifications to existing files, just create/delete/rename.)
“Mmmmm…. Banshee also has an “advantage of an entire ecosystem of software that works with it, and some through real-life testing”. Gnome-Do supports it quite nicely. Remuco also. Does are real-life tests.”
Oh, the Rhythmbox stuff is more numerous than that, mainly because it’s older and more widely used – there are tools for controlling it from, well, everywhere. Plus, being shipped as the default music player on Ubuntu for years has been quite helpful to it, even if lots of people did just install Amarok instead.
“Your video library argument fails since people tend to have Music Videos in their collections. Let’s not mention Amarok 2 support for playing videos and RB’s experimental YouTube support”
Ick. Does anyone actually use this? (Well, pubs and the like use jukebox software that supports music videos, but they buy in specialised software running on specially-built systems.) There’s also the… slight issue of appropriate metadata. Finally, the less said about Amarok 2 the better; real shark-jumping moment that.
#49 by zekopeko on August 7th, 2009
The majority of Banshee’s developers aren’t employed by Novell. Your entire argument fails since it’s apparent that people actually like working with a specific language even if they are being paid for it (win-win from developers perspective). I’m guessing that an “actual community of developers” in your mind only has people that aren’t paid to work on it.
December 2006 = Banshee 0.x.x branch. Banshee 1.x is a completely different code base. The time it took RB [1] and Banshee to implement the same feature is roughly the same.
[1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160159
Scratching an itch and all that. This just puts the question on the whole “developer are being paid to work on Banshee” thing. Perhaps they aren’t being paid to work full-time? Or they have something similar to Google’s 20% Your Time? Or Banshee is their pet project in their off-time?
Most people don’t realize how powerful Banshee is. There is a web interface and I think that somebody was talking about ncurses interface. You could easily run it on a headless machine.
And you pointed nicely that RB is an older player in the field. But that’s a double edged sword. The new kid usually has cool new trick that the older dude can’t compete with. It’s a dog eat dog (software) world out there and the users reap the benefits.
Contrary to your belief people like to watch music videos and tend to have them in their collections.
Jumping the shark moment is you talking about jukebox software when we are talking about desktop users. And yet again, contrary to your belief video containers allow for metadata storage. mp4 and mkv come to mind, not to mention the ubiquitous avi container.
#50 by makomk on August 7th, 2009
Hmmm… looks like Rhythmbox didn’t just have to implement file watching, but also the idea of library directories to actually watch. Odd, though I suppose that makes sense if they were thinking of an “import once, do all your library management through Rhythmbox thereafter” use case.
Pretty sure this was all a side-effect of Rhythmbox starting out as an iTunes clone, now I come to think about it – and the expectations of what a Linux music player should be have changed a lot from just “copies iTunes badly” since then. Basically, Rhythmbox had an excuse – what it should be like wasn’t as established back then, whereas Banshee had the designs and feature sets of the existing competitors to base itself on.
Curious. Who actually does most of the development work? I know it’s an official Novell piece of software.
Like to watch them, yes. Make them a part of their music collection along with their other tracks? Not convinced that’s so widespread.
Errm… because that’s the only use I can think of where integrating music videos and normal tracks into the same application is important?
They can store metadata of some sort Whether they support the right types of metadata entries to handle music tracks is another matter, as is getting the correct information into them. Not much stuff actually uses it for video files, unlike audio file metadata which is ubiquitous, so I’m guessing lots and lots of manual retagging is required.
#51 by zekopeko on August 7th, 2009
Let me repeat again what I’ve said above. Banshee 1.x is a completely rewritten code base. I doubt that there is much to compare it to the old 0.x code base. And it was only introduced in June of 2008.
Trust me when I say that I would also like library watching but I’m not going to nitpick when there is a patch that is just waiting to be merged. And of interesting note is that iTunes still doesn’t have library watching (I might be wrong on this one since when I open iTunes it showed me that little irritating window that says Adding files; but the option is nowhere to be seen in preferences).
This also strengthens my belief that Banshee doesn’t have a dedicated 24/7 developer(s) working on it but that Banshee’s development is just a part of Aarons and Gabriels work at Novell.
Try looking at commits from git. That might answer your question.
Still it’s available for those that use it. How about video podcasts? Those are widespread.
Banshee Media Player. Emphasis on media. The rest of the major OS’s don’t have a gazillion apps for managing various part of your media but one integrated solution. Even Moblin does it.
Take into account that mp3 were far easier to get and in the early days nobody paid attention to metadata. You had to find out the name of the song from it’s filename.
Video also wasn’t as ubiquitous as today and had the same faith as early mp3s in regards to metadata.
I’m assuming that in a few years when finally standalone players start to support other formats except avi that we will see metadata in video files in a widespread manner. iTunes already offers all of it’s video in mp4v format with correct metadata that is on par with imdb or any other information provider.
#52 by makomk on August 8th, 2009
Really, a total rewrite? No code reused at all? That’s… odd. Was it really so bad that it needed scrapping totally?
Well, as of a couple of weeks ago there possibly is, anyway. Apparently, until the start of July the patch rescanned your entire library every time a file changed, which was less than ideal – and until the 18th it definitely had a bug that made it unsuitable for merging.
Remember, though – when Banshee was initially being considered for merging into Ubuntu, that patch didn’t exist, and the fact the users would riot didn’t stop them seriously considering it. Also, there have been a fair number of past attempts that also didn’t get merged and suffered from code rot.
So it would seem. Linux users have reason to expect more than just an iTunes clone these days, though.
I’m sure they do (after all, the iTunes application is very metadata-oriented) – but since they’re copy-protected and can’t be played with other applications… While there is metadata in other video files, it’s not reliably useful for indexing purposes. I’m not sure even MythTV’s video library support bothers reading it.
The hard part of adding video playback probably wouldn’t be the playback itself – both Banshee and Rhythmbox use gstreamer internally, and that makes playing videos quite easy – but doing something sane with the files.
Well, I suppose Windows does (badly) and Apple do too (though that probably has more to do with leveraging the iTunes store – Quicktime is still their main video playback app). Not sure to what extent they actually support managing video collections, aside from ones bought from iTunes, mind.
#53 by Dan Serban on August 7th, 2009
I find it telling when you say:
Then a few posts later you go on to say:
So … let me run this again: the company (Novell) is dveloping Banshee to scratch its corporate itch?
#54 by zekopeko on August 7th, 2009
Why, yes Dan, companies do develop applications to scratch their itches all the time.
Case in point:
http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/productivity.html
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Content/UbuntuContributions
One would take it for granted that a company would like to use “it’s” framework for creating applications and services it sells. It’s great marketing all around.
#55 by Dan Serban on August 7th, 2009
I’m going to read that as “Mono would never stand on its own feet were it not for Novell developing Banshee & co on top of it.”
#56 by zekopeko on August 8th, 2009
Buahahahaha!!!!! Man, you are funny sometimes! So they should create a framework and then NOT use it?
“Dude let’s re-implement the whole .Net stack and then write our applications in Java.”
“That makes so much sense! It’s brilliant. Stallman will be proud of us. And our management. They just love to waste resources on something that is not going to be used.”
#57 by vexorian on August 8th, 2009
Honestly, however of a vibrant community banshee could have… It is simply not ready yet. It is interesting to see the move to Banshee getting rushed so much. If in theory it is going to get better than RB thanks to its vibrant community and active developerness, could you please wait till that happens? Right now RB is good enough. Ever heard if it is not broken don’t fix it? As of now the only reason some people would prefer banshee would be Mono, how pragmatic of them.
As of now, the move is non-sense. It is simply rushed. RB remains a lot more popular, and works better. Users don’t care about how “vibrant” a developer community is, they care about other things, maybe that’s the reason RB is the second most popular music player…
–
I have come to think this war is unproductive, but for reasons different to Jo’s (not his most coherent post, how odd).
Please assume I am prefixing all the following paragraphs with “in my opinion”, also that the guy making the opinions is just an amateur game developer whose FOSS projects are quite in the recreational/useless side of things. So people that think that only core developers should be heard and the remaining users’ opinions must be thrown to the trash should just ignore this post:
—
First of all, any sort of argument putting Mono’s legality on doubt, ultimately ends up helping only Novell . What that company sells since their deal is peace of mind and other sorts of Kool aids. If there are legal doubts about the legality of Mono, it becomes a selling point to Novell’s SUSE licenses, which have exclusive legal rights from MS according to their deals. So it is actually counter-productive.
Second, I am starting to think Mono is necessary, unfortunately I think that the current way the project is going is not optimal. Mono is necessary to fight .net, not to encourage it. And unfortunately, lack of information makes windows developers think that the windows.forms , activeX, SQL server apps they build on .net are cross platform, and Mono helps there, I don’t think it is intentional though. What Mono should imho do is compete with .net. Let GTK# be promoted as a true way to have cross platform apps, etc, etc, etc.
Regarding the CP, its terms are a joke. I think Mono devs could ask MS for better things, and I think MS would give them such thing, as it is in their interests…. Something like what’s offered by the FSF would be very nice. The CP is useless, and the other similar promise and Novell deal must stop getting used by people as a way to justify Mono’s legality. Their terms are awful. Specifically the alleged Novell exclusivity for mono and moonlight and things like the “Each developer should hire a team of lawyers before deciding to use the GPL”, plus the “cannot change the implementation” language from the promises are essentially bull.
If/when Mono does this, and becomes a good competitor to .net (which is perfectly possible as it is easier to make cross platform apps on it) while not relying legally on these “promises” or deals with Novell, then it will be a great thing for FOSS. As of now, it is even irrelevant (sorry) , the major .net apps (specifically my country’s mandatory tax software) still don’t work. And the mono project supports its claims of legality on the Novell deal and MS promises.
Anyway, what I am trying to say, is that in my ideal world. We have people making sure to state that Mono’s legality is in good shape and does not require any of these promises/deals, I guess it would be much easier without such non-sense as law supporting the idea of software patents.
Mono apps in the default? I really think it is not desirable. For practical purposes, I don’t think the pro-mono guys would love to have Java apps in the default either, and I wouldn’t. It should be a good option for people to be able to install these apps. But the default should try native apps, I mean, really… Call me a zealot or something. That things like banshee plan on actually becoming technology demos featuring a lot of MS technology for no reason makes me wish it was avoided altogether… Or at least, don’t push these apps just for the sole reason of them being written on Mono. The RB case is such an example, there is no reason to do any switch right now. If you want the best app to win, then wait till it is actually the best app…
And finally, stop treating users like crap. Just because someone isn’t a core developer, there is no reason to expel him from the community and begin calling him a faux community member. After all, if there is something this community needs, is users, we already have many developers… Oh, and Don’t forget that RMS, the mother of all ‘zealots’ and kids with a sense of entitlement has contributed much more code than most of you…
Anyway, I guess my point got lost somewhere, for as long as the anti-mono folks focus on looking for legal risks in Mono and as long as Mono guys keep relying on things like the CP and pretend that everything is all right. This debate is pointless.
#58 by vexorian on August 8th, 2009
Ew, BTW, I happen to love how a post about how the Mono war is unproductive has caused the most comments on a mono-nono thread in a good while…
#59 by zekopeko on August 9th, 2009
“Total rewrite” referring to significant changes to the platform. My mistake for using the wrong words. Was just trying to make an emphasis.
Banshee was proposed for default and was given a set of problems Ubuntu developers would want fixed before doing so. Thinking that “Banshee is being shoved Ubuntu no matter what” is a mistaken belief. It looks like Banshee won’t make it in Karmic since one of those problems is a larger issues that can’t be easily fixed (or fixed in a hackish way).
And it’s being delivered.
mp3’s were also copy protected in iTunes. And there is still much that can be done with video files. Just because the situation isn’t favorable now shouldn’t mean that one should just give up.
Actually Windows does it rather nicely IMO. Apple’s iTunes is a gateway to their store and they are pushing it as such. “Get our media content from us”, but that’s their business prerogative.
Gnome and KDE have dedicated video player and media players.
#60 by seller_liar on August 13th, 2009
Mono war is very productive because learns new devs to follow the right way .
For example ,nathive developer does not like mono because of lack of ethics.