The discussion hets up.
In this corner…
So, RMS has a new blog entry “Lest CodePlex Perplex“, where he insightfully analyzes the CodePlex situation. Among the clear points he makes:
- There is reason to be wary, but we can not know at this time that the Microsoft CodePlex Foundation will be “bad”.
- One day we can judge the Microsoft CodePlex Foundation by its actions, but right now all we can do is anticipate based on best available information
He also lays out concerns about how Microsoft may intend to subvert Free Software to the greatest degree possible through actions such as:
- Emphasizing Open Source “practicalities” over Free Software ethics. This is quite a success already, with many Fauxpen Source supporters gleefully assisting Microsoft efforts directly or indirectly to downplay any “Freedom talk” at all when discussing FLOSS.
- Restricting FLOSS to Open Source additions/extras to a Proprietary and Closed Source core – increasing dependence on the Closed base, and greatly limiting the real value of such FLOSS.
- Making sure Microsoft Windows or other Microsoft platforms are the preferred/only platforms for development.
This is illustrates not only some of the problems with the Microsoft CodePlex Foundation and the current debate in the community, but it also shows RMS is perfectly “in touch” and still foresightful about Free Software issues (refuting a common baseless attack that he is a “dinosaur”, “out of touch”, etc.)
There is a bit that will get all the attention though, and I predict it will not only overshadow the deft summary RMS plots, but also will spur a new round of the same old ad hominems against RMS and the more generalized fallacious arguments against Free Software supporters.
RMS calls Miguel de Icaza an “apologist”. Presumably a Microsoft apologist, although he didn’t explictly use that phrase.
And, In This Corner ….
Now, Mr. de Icaza has posted his reaction. As always, it is good reading because you can really see where the dangerous mindset is coming from; not only from the “top”, but also from the “ground troops”. Just read the blog entry and see – it’s right there for anyone who cares.
For example, you ask?
Mr. de Icaza leads off with:
Richard Stallman does not seem to have anything better to do than launch personal attacks against me.
This is a light ad hominem, and hints at the common theme that any criticism is invalid because there are better things to be doing, or the critic makes no other contributions, or that criticism in general is without worth. This is an extremely common theme for Team Mono.
Continuing we have this:
In his last piece he has decided to call me a Microsoft apologist because I do not participate in his witch hunt.
Um, no. He called you an “apologist”, because you are one. An apologist is ”one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something“. Mr. de Icaza has an enormous output of spoken and written defenses of his actions. To go further than RMS explictly did, I will state that Mr. de Icaza has an enourmous output of defenses of Microsoft specifically. He does it in the very response under discussion, when he talks about how ”great people” inside Microsoft are steering the company into becoming a “community citizen”.
Disapproval is not Fear
This is a bit of a funny point. Mr. de Icaza loves to imply or outright state that those people critical of Microsoft are afraid of Microsoft.
This is so foolish I can scarcely understand why Mr. de Icaza loves this line of argument so. Understand this, when I criticize Nickelback, it’s not because I am afraid of them. It is because they suck.
When people criticize Microsoft, it is not because of fear. It is because they are tired of vendor lock-in, overpriced and insecure software, hindering the industry, illegal behavior, lies and slander against projects they devote time and effort to, and so many — many — other offenses that Microsoft has committed, and continues to commit.
“Fear” is not even a factor.
But, I guess the desire to attack the opponent by hinting he is a coward (or fear-monger) is too strong to overcome.
“If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything” – Mark Twain
One thing you will notice if you pay attention to Team Mono rhetoric like I do, is that it is rarely even logically consistent with itself.
For example, one of the big defense points that came out when the Microsoft CodePlex Foundation was announced is that it was an independent body, it was only because things needed to be set up so quickly that it was so heavily staffed by Microsoft people, and so forth.
But, in his blog entry, Mr. de Icaza defends — dare I say apologizes — for his participation by saying:
Working at CodePlex is a great way of helping steer Microsoft in the right direction.
Eh? If it is an independent Foundation, then how will it be “steering” Microsoft? Lots of multi-billion dollar international monopolist corporations being steered around by independent foundations that I’m not aware of out there? Who knew?
Disregarding Intent
Finally – because this is already too long – Mr. de Icaza reveals his naive disregard for intent by casually dismissing Microsoft’s recent patent sell:
As for the patent sale, they are now in good hands: the OIN, so they are not a problem.
This absolutely ignores the fact that Microsoft locked OIN out of the orginal bidding, that Red Hat (among others) expressed concerns about Microsoft targeting patent trolls as buyers, and that the general agreement is that OIN simply “outmaneuvered” Microsoft.
The director of the OIN himself said that “the open source community lucked out“. (My emphasis).
But, Mr. de Icaza breezily passes this off in a footnote, as if saying “Well, he may have shot at you, but he missed, so why all the concern?”
Summary
I’m sure this is far from over, but I think it is worth it to carefully read both RMS’ and Mr. de Icaza’s statements here, and for color pay attention to the comments on Mr. de Icaza’s blogs. Not only will you be ahead of the talking points power curve – but more importantly I think the clear contrast between then rational analysis based on fundamental principles and historical actions by RMS and the logical fallacies and wide-eyed naivety of Mr. de Icaza’s defense is quite striking!
This article was also posted at The Source.com!

#1 by TaQ on October 6th, 2009
That was a very ironic and refreshing post.
My interpretation of what happened since the two shoe salesmen choice is about opportunity but with a very strong emphasis on business with a lot of money not necessarily with a lot of freedom. “Looking at opportunities where others see hopelessness” not necessarily means some kind of goodness involved. A lot of people on the history made “business” like that and they were not, let me say, some kind of beautiful. But, hey, as people use to say nowadays, “they are commercial ‘companies’ and are on their right”, ok? Stupid way to see things, IMHO.
But now, about the fear. Look who’s talking about fear. Know the “second citizen” expression? Who talks about that often? Who, for years, tell us that Microsoft technology is indispensable for the good of Free Software, when time proves that way?
Let us remember some interesting bits. On 2004 (http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2004/Apr-24.html):
“They are all fine points of view, but what makes Longhorn dangerous for the viability of Linux on the desktop is that the combination of Microsoft deployment power, XAML, Avalon and .NET is killer.
And finally, Longhorn will get deployed, XAML/Avalon applications will be written, and people will consume them. The worst bit: people will expect their desktop to be able to access these ”rich’ sites. With 90% market share, it seems doable.
Will this be the end of the world for Linux and the Mac? Not likely, many of us will continue using our regular applications, and enjoy our nicely usable and consistent desktops, but it will leave us out of some markets (just like it does today).
The time is short, Microsoft will ship Avalon in 2-3 years, and they got a preview of the technology out.
I see two possible options:
* Implement Avalon/XAML and ship it with Linux (with Mono).
* Come up with our own, competitive stack.”
That’s fear spreading and creating a problem just to (surprise!) sell the solution. Ok, some months after the post there was another one (http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2004/Sep-01.html) saying:
“My prediction is that Avalon v1 will be a throw-away: it is not really the foundation on which you will build applications: V2 will likely not be backwards compatible, they will have to re-architect bits of it: which means that people will end up with two frameworks running side-by-side: Avalon V1 and Avalon V2.”
But this is that kind of non-refutable post where reality knocks the door and if you try to continue spreading your fear, people will call you a fool or see what lies behind your comments. No escape then. But this repeats over and over, with other technologies over time. Now Silverlight is the “we can’t live without it” thing and a lot of effort are done to spread the idea of a marvelous RIA web version with it.
#2 by Jason on October 7th, 2009
TaQ,
Thank you for your comments!
I agree there is a ironically strong element of “Linux can’t possibly succeed without cloning this vital Microsoft” hysteria/fear that seems to underlie many of Mr. de Icaza’s rationales for Mono/Moonlight.
I also agree that the “two shoe salesmen” example supports just about whatever viewpoint you like. “Looking at opportunities” may be a noble and valuable undertaking, or it might be good old fashioned exploitation – it all depends on the real situation, not some parable.
#3 by theodor on October 7th, 2009
As so often, right on the spot!
#4 by Richard on October 8th, 2009
Just a thought, but couldn’t this entire article be summarised as “Richard Stallman is a Free Software guy. Miguel de Icaza is an Open Source Software guy. Conflict ensues.”? (Don’t take that link too seriously — it’s a bit of a stereotype of Open-Source people, but then again, it’s written from a Free Software perspective … “conflict ensues”, anyone?)
Nothing to see here, move along, move along …
#5 by Jason on October 9th, 2009
Richard,
I suppose one could dismiss the debate in those terms, but I think that would be both glib and dishonest.
For me, at least, I see more than a simple difference of opinion. For one thing, the style of argument is quite different. In just this specific case, for example, I feel RMS’ makes his case rationally and based on evidence, whereas Mr. de Icaza prefers to take a more emotion-based approach and unfortunately chooses some fallacious reasoning.
Another important point is how Mr. de Icaza simply dismisses the Microsoft selling patents issue. That speaks very poorly of him, I think.
As I have said before it is this dishonesty that bothers me about this issue. That is, it is not necessarily the position itself that I have such a problem with – people are absolutely going to differ on how to approach things and solve problems – but the manner and tactics that are used is what orginally got me going (and still keeps me going.)
That’s why I personally don’t accept it’s just a two-sides-of-the-same-coin sort of issue.
#6 by Jason on October 9th, 2009
It’s also telling that Mr. de Icaza has apparently now simply removed his comments about the patents and closed discussion on his blog. It is, of course, his right to do so.
#7 by Richard on October 9th, 2009
Jason,
Which fallacious reasoning? I don’t see any on Miguel de Icaza’s part. Perhaps he hasn’t laid out all the steps in his thinking, but there’s nothing fallacious there. Do you have specific examples in mind?
And which points does Richard Stallman make that are valid in the Open Source (as opposed to “Free Software”) world? The only valid reasoning (in an Open Source context) that I could find in his entire piece was the inductive reasoning about Microsoft. However, inductive reasoning fails when the object under consideration is changing, and since I think that Microsoft has undergone a great deal of change in the past few years, I don’t buy into his argument.
As for the “patent trolls” thing, it all smells a bit fishy to me. If Microsoft wanted to sell them to some legal vultures, it could have done so via a private sale. They were under no obligation to hold a public auction! It seems to me that they wanted to raise the most amount of cash from the sale of a bunch of patents that they never intended to use, so they held an auction and the highest bidder won. All of this nonsense about how the OIN “outsmarted” anyone, or how Microsoft “lost out” on the auction, is just made-up moonshine. Nobody has any evidence one way or another, but everybody’s happy to point fingers and see conspiracies!
#8 by Jason on October 11th, 2009
Sure, I’ll play (once):
Ad hominem and a lie, because rms was not “launching a personal attack”.
A lie. rms did not call Mr de Icaza an apologist because of a “witch hunt”. He called Mr de Icaza an apologist because Mr de Icaza IS an apologist
Another ad hominem and hypocritical, as Mr de Icaza is not shy about attacking “allies” for being critical of his efforts, to extend to projects he has championed beyond Mono/Moonlight.
I doubt “everyone” he works with “wants to change the world” – I would wager at least one dude is in there just trying to pull down a paycheck.
Furthermore he is implying – incorrectly – that people that criticize him are “dominated by fear”.
Again, his implication is that only he and his team are working on constructive solutions, where critics aren’t doing anything but “moaning and complaining”.
Ad hominem non-specifically from start to finish, attacking the “leader” and the “base” of his critics.
You can guess the fallacy here.
More of the same, with a little demonization by association political attack as well, having the nice side effect of directly comparing rms to a man who he probably doesn’t agree with on very much.
A lie, because it computes just fine to rms and anyone. It’s not like no one understands the situation. The debate is over how things will turn out, meaning all sides are speculating – that is the nature of discussion.
Just smearing now – the entire“state of the world is hopeless”?
Mr de Icaza is no longer even trying at this point.
If you go through Mr. de Icaza’s statements in similar veins, you will always see the same thing. A long list of thinly veiled personal attacks, character smears and distortions of opponents’ positions.
Calling people scared or implying they are too stupid to see the truth are two long-time favorites.
As for the “patent trolls” thing, OIN and Red Hat both have good statements on how they think the thing went down. You can choose to dismiss them along with us wacky zealot conspiratists if you like – I don’t think that is the right thing to do, but it is your perogative of course.
Finally my apologies for the haste and errors in this post, I am incredibly pressed for time, but I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you!
#9 by Richard on October 11th, 2009
Jason,
With respect, that’s not quite what I was asking for. You consider Miguel de Icaza’s statements to be insulting. Fair enough; I can understand that view. However, a bunch of insults don’t make for a false argument, or a logical fallacy (this is not a fallacy, but this is).
#10 by Lex on October 10th, 2009
@Richard
This kind of white-washing is highly naive. You seem to suffer the same symptoms as Mr. de Icaza. In fact, you sound exactly like him!
#11 by Richard on October 10th, 2009
Lex,
Is there some definition of “white-washing” that means “asking for any evidence of X, and in the absence of such evidence believing the simplest explanation”? No?
Well, then, it seems to me that the symptoms that Mr de Icaza is displaying are those of sanity. I’m rather glad that I share those symptoms.
#12 by Lex on October 11th, 2009
http://press.redhat.com/2009/09/09/microsoft-and-patent-trolls/
Well, damn the Red Hat for “pointing fingers and creating conspiracies”!
Microsoft has clearly done nothing wrong. They do not make enough money by selling Windows anymore, so they were just trying to make a quick buck by selling some Linux-hostile patents. That is their right, can you blame them.
They could have caused patent problems for some open source projects, but it was unintentional. And since OIN has acquired the patents, it’s no longer a problem.
This makes perfect sense to a sane unbiased observer.
#13 by Richard on October 11th, 2009
Oh, Red Hat says it? Well, that must make it true. I’m sure that you’re not guilty of any fallacious reasoning at all.
As for their marketing material: well, who would ever believe that a seller wants to point out how wonderful their goods are to the prospective buyers — whether the goods are or are not as depicted?
Let me know if you ever manage to dig up some actual evidence.
#14 by Lex on October 12th, 2009
Hey, I’m agreeing with you here. The Red Hat are damn liars. And Microsoft is right. That makes way too much sense to disagree.
#15 by Lex on October 12th, 2009
ATTENTION
It has come to my attention that both Red Hat and OIN are lying. There were no Microsoft patents marketed to attack open source software. They made it all made up to spread hate about Microsoft.
Microsoft is a kind and gentle company and we should love and respect it.
#16 by Richard on October 12th, 2009
Just wanted to let you know that posts like this really are the reason that people rarely engage with you any more. It’s not because Jo Shields, Miguel de Icaza, or anyone else doesn’t have anything to say; it’s because you push out ridiculous “nyah-nyah-nyah!” posts like this.
If you aren’t open to changing your mind, then don’t bother with entering the discussion. Or, at a minimum, restrain yourself from posting twisted versions of other people’s perspectives — it just annoys people, and makes them less willing to constructively engage with you in future.
#17 by Lex on October 12th, 2009
Well, let’s break it down:
Do you trust Red Hat: Yes/No?
If yes, then you have your evidence. If no, then Red Hat are liars, and there is no evidence. You have picked your option, I am just outlining the consequences.
I apologize, but the quality of the response is directly related to the quality of your argument. You will not get far by denying the aggressive patent move by Microsoft which was covered in press (and serious sources like Red Hat and OIN). Even the most far fetched pro Microsoft argument has to have some roots in reality.
#18 by Richard on October 12th, 2009
OK, let’s break it down, then.
Do you trust Red Hat: Yes/No/RedHat is not always correct?
I pick Option 3. Red Hat could have misinterpreted their intention; Red Hat could be playing a PR game; Red Hat might have sources that they trust, but which are either lying to them or incorrect themselves; Red Hat rushed to a conclusion, and finds it difficult to retract now; [insert any number of other options here].
What we do know is that neither Red Hat, nor the OIN, have released any evidence whatsoever. Your choices are just as false as C.S. Lewis’ “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic” choices: the fact is that there are many other options, most of which don’t end up either trusting Red Hat without question or calling them outright liars. Me, I side with the innocent-until-proven-guilty, and await some proof of guilt.